The Career Identity Crisis Nobody Talks About with Nancy Chu

In this episode of Success Leaves Clues Podcast, our guest is Nancy Chu, founder of Nancy Chu & Co., a coaching practice for senior product leaders. After nearly 20 years in engineering and product management, including leadership roles at Meta and Roku, Nancy made the decision to bet on herself following a surprising layoff and transition into full-time coaching. In this conversation, Nancy shares the lessons she learned from redefining her identity beyond corporate prestige, narrowing her ideal client profile, and building a coaching business focused on helping senior product leaders land high-paying roles. She explains why consistently showing up and controlling your inputs matters more than chasing engagement, why hiring help should be viewed as an investment rather than an expense, and why coaches should focus on the value and proven outcomes they provide rather than simply selling their time. Nancy also opens up about the mindset behind asking for help, the importance of continuous reflection, and how separating your fulfillment from outcomes you cannot fully control can lead to healthier and more sustainable success.

You can find her on:
https://www.nancychu.co/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancychu
https://www.youtube.com/@coachnancychu

Transcript

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Nancy Chu 0:00

If you consistently show up, the right people will find you. So all you have to do is control the inputs because you cannot control the outputs. And so from the very beginning, I believe that I'm just gonna show up because I could control that. And even if people don't comment, it's not an indicator for anything, really. And that my job is to just put high quality thinking out there.

Davis Nguyen 0:28

Welcome to Success Leaves Clues, the podcast where we interview business owners on how they built their businesses and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is David Swin, and I'm a business coach and the founder of Purple Circle, where we help business owners achieve their first six-figure, seven-figure, and eight-figure year, all without sacrificing their quality of life. Before becoming a business coach and before founding Purple Circle, I started and scale with several seven and eight-figure coaching businesses and have been a consultant at several businesses doing over $100 million each, including some that are publicly listed and doing over a billion dollars each. In every episode of the podcast, you're gonna learn lessons that took RS years to learn, and you'll be able to learn that in minutes. No matter if you're a new business owner or an established business owner, every episode is gonna give you the clues in order to elevate your business.

Pedro Stein 1:12

Welcome to Success Leaves Clues Podcast. I'm Pedro, and today I'm joined by Nancy Chu, founder of Nancy Chuen Co., a coaching practice for senior product leaders. Nancy spent nearly 20 years in engineering and product management, including leadership roles at Meta and Roku, before transitioning to full-time coaching in 2023, where she now helps L6 to L9 product leaders land high-paying roles at top tech companies. Welcome to the show, Nancy.

Nancy Chu 1:51

Thank you for having me, Pedro.

Pedro Stein 1:53

Great to have you. Okay. Now I always tell this, well, not always, but sometimes I feel the need to expose a little bit about myself, which is the fact that I'm a comic book nerd. Okay. That being said, I love the first editions, the origin stories, right? So let's rewind a bit. Because every coach has that moment where they look at their life and say, Yeah, I guess this is what I'm doing now, right? So when was that for you, Nancy?

Nancy Chu 2:21

It was at the tail end of COVID when I had a travel bug because I couldn't travel anywhere. Then in the middle of my travels, it was also after a surprising layoff impacted by the Roku layoff in late 2022, basically right during the holidays was when the layoff happened. And then I gave myself permission to just enjoy the trips that I had already planned. And you know how when you go on trips, you see things differently, it kind of opens your horizon. And then when I was in Japan, I decided that I was going to bet on myself instead of trying to look for another corporate job.

Pedro Stein 3:07

Oh, that's exciting. Oh my god.

Nancy Chu 3:10

Okay.

Pedro Stein 3:11

I get where you're coming from. Just in May, past May, we had our retreat at Purple from Purple Circle, right? And we went to Tulum, right? So we visit the Sinotes, and that really is an experience. When you travel and you're exposed to different cultures and exposed to different stuff, you're like, oh my God. So the world is not that small bubble, I imagine to be so, right?

Nancy Chu 3:33

Exactly what I felt.

Pedro Stein 3:35

That's awesome. Okay. Now I'm curious about one thing because it's almost like an identity shift, right? Uh on a side note, I am a career coach myself, okay? And I was at I worked at banking corporate several years. I then worked at a consulting firm here in Brazil, Ernest and Young. So there's a shift that happens when you go the entrepreneur's journey, right? It's just like we're so used to have that weld aisle machine working on the back end. We don't even know what sales is all about. We don't even know sometimes what leads are all about. There's business development. Yeah. So when that shift helped uh happened for you, when you launch your business from, you know, in the early days, you're helping people, you're giving advice to you know what? I'm building a real business around this, you know? Can you walk us through that?

Nancy Chu 4:28

It was when I was trying to find product market fit on my own, and I was trying all kinds of different things. And at the time I had defined product market fit to be 10k a month. And that was going to be an indicator for me that if I could find product market fit, then I could scale. And then after trying to do it alone without any help DIY everything for about two months, I know it's not very long, but I'm also a very naturally impatient person. Uh and then I realized I couldn't figure out how to go above 10K on my own. And I decided to enroll in coaching to get help so I could learn how to scale. And then when I joined that coaching program, I actually didn't realize it was a marketing program. The the promise of that program was that we were going to help you grow your business without burning out, right? That was the main promise. And then I joined, and then later on I figured out, whoa, I'm learning how to market. And as a product manager, I never seriously thought about how the business runs outside of RD, outside of product development. And I just thought marketing, and to your point, Legion and sales, they were all kind of the same thing. And we re internally, as a product manager, we referred to it as quote unquote the business. And I just never really thought about it until I was taught how marketing works. And then later on, I also enrolled in sales training. I was like, oh, okay, so this is how sales works. That was the biggest shift for me. That I cannot just take things for granted. I have to learn how it works and then do it better and do it more efficiently.

Pedro Stein 6:29

Isn't it wild? Like you like 20 years in the game in corporate and you're so used, like when people ask you, like, I don't know, like in a birthday party, and they're like, hey Nancy, what do you do for a living? You're like, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, blah, blah, blah. I have this position, I do this. And then sometime that happened to me. You're in that middle, you're not sure where you're at. If you're you're you're just trying to make it, but you're launching this at the same time. So you're testing waters, and someone caught you off guard and asks you, like the simple question that was so easy to answer for 20 years. They're like, Yeah, I do this. And then and you realize, okay, I'm not a hundred percent sure of actually who I am, you know, because it's that's an identity piece, right?

Nancy Chu 7:14

It was identity crisis because I like a lot of people in my community, we tie our identity to how prestigious our companies are. Losing that identity was very confusing and also scary. Am I really ready to let go of the quote unquote prestige that people assigned my company, my employer, that is, and being courageous enough to let go of what prestigious means to everyone else, and I get to define what it means on my own terms for myself without getting biased by what other people think.

Pedro Stein 8:00

So interesting. You're in that space, and then people they change companies and they're like, oh, that sounds like a downgrade, and all that. I remember that in banking, right? Or comparing because at the end of the day, they're so tied with the company they work for, yeah, but they don't really, they're just an employee, dude. That's not a big deal, right? It's just like, and people I think I'm not sure if you agree with that, but I feel like corporate in a way suppresses the true selves. You're getting their version of who you should be that's right to you know, get you fit in the box. Does that make sense?

Nancy Chu 8:35

Yes. Also, there's a dopamine hit when the quote unquote prestige kind of gets awarded to the employees. So at the time when I was working at it was still Facebook and not Meta. There was a lot of prestige associated with that brand. And so it felt very good to tell people, oh, I work at Facebook, or oh, I'm a Facebook product manager. Like that felt very good. And for six years when I worked there, my only dream at the time was to grow in that company so I could climb the ladder and continue to increase my level. And that was my whole entire career goal because that's what people assumed and associated prestige to be, and that's what I wanted until that shift happened, and I I had to basically let go of what I thought prestige to be and create my own path.

Pedro Stein 9:36

Okay, now let's talk about that path, right? Because almost four years in the game, three years with Nancy Chu and Co. Three and a half years. Let's settle on that. And then I'm not sure if that happened to you, but it at least it happened in my own business, right? In coaching, which is like in the early days, most coaches they're just trying to make it to see if this is really gonna land, right? So there is almost like an evolution of who you serve and the people you tend to attract in the early days. Sometimes we're trying to coach everyone, not say it's your case, but eventually we tr we tend to sharpen the blade, right? We tend to, you know, attract a certain type of individual. We realize, okay, actually, I can really, really help these people. So my question to you is the evolution of your ideal client profile in the early days compared to now, and who do you serve now?

Nancy Chu 10:29

Yeah. So the description that you had for my business was in the early days, L6, which is a level, level six and above. Uh earlier this year, I pivoted, not pivot, but I redefined whom I want to serve, and that is the level seven and above. In the very, very early days, though, I tried all kinds of different levels. I tried various different topics, and then I realized I could do my best work if I could focus on the level sevens and above. And those are the people I'm serving for. Level seven is a meta and Google terminology, and outside of meta and Google, most of the time it maps to director and senior director and above. So that's what that means.

Pedro Stein 11:18

Oh, thankfully you you cleared that out. I was like, what the hell is even that, right? Oh, good. Okay. So let's do a little quick game of pretend here, Nancy. Let's pretend I'm a level seven and above. I'm your uh avatar, your ideal client profile. Okay. So, first of all, Nancy, how would I be able to find you? Okay, marketing-wise.

Nancy Chu 11:39

LinkedIn, Substack, and YouTube.

Pedro Stein 11:42

LinkedIn, Substack, and YouTube. Okay, still in the game of pretend. Let's say I looked at your LinkedIn profile or even your Substack or even watch some stuff on YouTube, right? And let's say that resonated. What you got out there resonated with me. I'm like, you know what? Nancy seems pretty cool. And I reached out, right? I was like, hey Nancy, how does it look like to work with you? However, that looks like right now for your process. And we can speed up the sales process. Totally up to you. You can add a side note there. My question to you is like, can you give me an understanding of how you structure your business from the an unboarded point of view, right? I'm I'm a client. Is this like one-on-one? Is it one too many? How does that look like? How do you help me? And the potential outcomes I can expect.

Nancy Chu 12:31

The potential outcome is helping you land a job offer that pays you $900,000 in total comp and above. That's the outcome, or that's the goal. How I could help you is either through a group coaching program or a private coaching program. You were also asking about the sales process. It depends on which channel you find me at. But most of the time, let's say you find me on LinkedIn, you express some interest, you would fill out some questions that I have for you so that I get to know you better. And this is done async. And if I feel that based on your answers, I have the right skill set to help you, then I would also see, because I could tell from my answers how well you know my content. And if I feel that you don't really know my content yet, then I would ask you to watch certain videos first to get to know me better. And if my perspectives and my style and my personality resonate with your learning style, then there's a high chance that we would be able to work very well together. So I would ask you to watch those videos first. And then I would then ask you which parts of the videos resonated with you and which parts didn't. And that gives me another signal on whether we have similar similar styles. And then I would then ask you the the next step is to send you all the information on how I can help. Then I would send you all the information. And then I would basically then ask, are you in or out? Or if you have any questions. And if you have any questions, happy to answer any of the questions. And if you're not sure yet, you could come to our monthly community roundtable. And I've been running these roundtables for free for I guess three years now. You could come for free. And some of my clients have been coming to the round tables multiple months before ever reaching out. And so that is a summary of what the touch point and sales process looks like.

Pedro Stein 14:34

And just to clear out that, you mentioned you help them land the job, right? And and there's a classic career coach uh prospect question, which is something what do you do? You're gonna get me the job? Are you going to apply for me? Can you run down that explanation just so for people to understand what exactly that entails?

Nancy Chu 14:53

Yeah, great question. So there are two parts to the job search process. One is getting interviews, and then second is acing interviews. So I don't help with getting interviews, I help with acing interviews.

Pedro Stein 15:06

Great, okay. And what would you say? That that's one thing that I'm very curious about. Like, let's say I'm uh I'm being on boarded, okay? And I understand different levels of understanding, but if you notice a pattern from your clients, a classic misconception that they have, like that you realize during the process, oh, this happened again. Is thinking the problem is A and actually it's B, you know? What would you say would you pinpoint for the audience and people listening that could be interested in that? It's like the main thing you you realize people in your space are having a misconception about this.

Nancy Chu 15:47

Doesn't happen anymore, and I think it's because the more content I put out there to bust people's assumptions, the more people started to see a different perspective. But in the earlier days of my coaching business, people used to ask me all the time, how many mock interviews do I get? They were using that number as a proxy to judge how much value they could derive from the program. I don't get that question anymore. And I think and I don't know this to be sure exactly, but I think it's because now that I'm more than three years into my business and content marketing is a big part of my business, I am constantly sharing my perspective that quantity is not necessarily a good proxy to evaluating how much value you could get or how much help you can get. Because practicing the same things over and over again doesn't mean that you're learning a new way of communicating or a clearer way to think about the problem that you're asked to solve in these interviews. And so the more I talked about how to think more deeply, the more I talked about how clear thinking is a prerequisite to clear communication, the less I've been getting as how many mocks do I get?

Pedro Stein 17:11

Love that. Okay. I'm curious about another thing. I've seen a lot of coaches like, oh, I'm not gonna send them X, Y, and Z video because people don't have the time. And we were discussing about sending the async videos, right? Yeah. And I imagine the first one was not easy to send to, right? Because there is some scarcity mindset behind it, like, oh, they're not gonna watch it. I'm gonna try to do all the habit lift in myself and explain everyone about the what your program entails. I understand that. Uh, wasn't it easy for you to adapt that to actually start doing that in the first ones when you're like, hey, watch this? Because there are a lot of people that are afraid to send people things because ah, they're not gonna watch and all that.

Nancy Chu 17:53

I never had that assumption. I never assumed that people would object to watching videos. And in fact, a lot of people reach out after they watch my YouTube videos. And it could be the people that I served. They love DIY and they love to try to figure things out on their own. And so they would look to see what content you have out there, they would scrub the internet for all kinds of resources, they will find all the resources that they can find, they would talk to LLMs to get all the tips and tricks, they would just do a lot of things on their own before even reaching out because even reaching out is a sign of weakness to a lot of my people that they don't even want to really consider that they need help. And these are high performers, right? These are people who have always been at the top of their game all their lives, and so it's it's not a very natural thing for them to reach out for help. And so I never had the assumption that people don't have time or people would not want to watch a video.

Pedro Stein 19:06

Which brings me back to my follow-up question, right? That you mentioned, it's like content marketing, right? Engagement, clicks, and all of that. If I'm understanding your ICP correctly, they're not the guys who's gonna who's gonna raise their hands in a comment section and say, Hey, I need help, right? They're gonna watch in the dark, like secretly follow you and like come up with you and say, Hey, I've been watching your stuff for I don't know how many months, but they never comment, they never lie because they don't want to expose themselves, right?

Nancy Chu 19:37

They don't want other people to know.

Pedro Stein 19:40

Yeah, they feel vulnerable by showing up their true colors out in the open. I mean, who wouldn't? Okay, interesting. So it does that make it hard for you to, you know, metrics, engagements, like you're posting and people are not commenting, right? And you're like, mmm. In the in the early days specifically, or did you already got that dialed in?

Nancy Chu 20:02

In the early days, I already believed that if you consistently show up, the right people will find you. So all you have to do is control the inputs because you cannot control the outputs. And so from the very beginning, I believed that I'm just gonna show up because I could control that. And even if people don't comment, it's not an indicator for anything, really. And that my job is to just put high quality thinking out there, right?

Pedro Stein 20:36

Well, you cannot control their expectations, right? So at the end of the day, it's about the input and the output you mentioned. Okay. Now I want to shift gears for a second, talk a little bit about business, okay? Because, well, on a side note, I see a lot of coaches out there advocating against burnout, for example. And sometimes they're burning out themselves, right? Because they're wearing all the hats. That's a classic one. Like you're you move to coaching, now you're mark, you're the marketer, you're doing sales, you're doing delivery, blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm coming from. So, and your work seems pretty hands-on, you know. So, how do you think about capacity so you don't stretch yourself too thin?

Nancy Chu 21:17

Yeah, I actually think that I made my first hire a little bit too late. I wish that I had hired earlier in my business. It's never too late, and I needed to go through that to learn it very well. And so now I see hiring as an investment, it's not an expense. I used to think it's an expense. Hiring the right people is how you grow the business, or even if you don't want to grow the business, it's how you can sustain it without burning out.

Pedro Stein 21:49

Okay. Good thing that we're both, you know, alive. There's always time to correct the path. So the past is the past, it's all good. Now, another topic I love. Touching and talking about is pricing, nothing about hard numbers here, more about the mindset behind it, right? Because at the end of the day, Nancy, us coaches, we are charging them for our time, right? It's a very self-worth path in a way. So, how do you think about the topic today? And were there any lessons along the way that shaped how you landed where you are now?

Nancy Chu 22:23

Yeah, it's much easier for me to sell high ticket than low ticket. And that was a lesson learned along the way as well. It's not that I'm selling my time, right? I'm selling, I'm selling a shortcut, I'm selling heuristics so that you don't have to figure everything out on your own. I am selling patterns that have worked for other people in the past that are likely to work for you as well. Right. So it's not necessarily that I'm selling my time, I'm selling an outcome that has been proven to be true many, many times.

Pedro Stein 22:59

Awesome. Okay, love that. Now I want to shift gears for a second because we're almost four years, you know, Nancy Chuenco. And I'm curious about where you're taking all this, Nancy. Looking ahead. Where do you see the business going? You know, are you thinking about scaling, hiring even more people? Is there a next step you're excited about?

Nancy Chu 23:22

I actually really like how the business is doing right now. Uh it's not a crazy big business, but it's a healthy business. I used to work all the time, right? I used to work 10-hour days, and it didn't really burn me out because I was excited and I was passionate until it started to burn out. Right. And then I was thinking, if I wanted to burn out, I should just go back to corporate.

Pedro Stein 23:55

I love the option, right? If I if this is really what I'm doing, I'm going back to corporate for a page.

Nancy Chu 24:01

Yes, and also I was making a lot more in corporate. So if I wanted to burn out, I should just go back to corporate and get paid more too. But that's not what I want today. I want a lifestyle business and people in my community, because in tech, there's a lot of tech startups, and the playbook for startups in tech is that you get product market fit and then you show early signs of success and you try to get VC funding and then you scale, right? That's the known playbook. And if you are talking to a VC, they almost look down on lifestyle businesses as if it's second-tier citizens, right, in their eyes. But to me, a lifestyle business is tier one business, right? Lifestyle business is winning, and and that's what I want. And so when I think about the future, I want to continue to enjoy not having to work all the time, but still have a healthy business.

Pedro Stein 25:08

Okay, so we have to respect certain boundaries. And I love the fact that you mentioned for you. I think every business had needs to have that vision of what the owner wants to do with it, right? So if you want a lifestyle business, dude, what do they have to do with that, right? It's your business. I mean, their problem, right? If they don't like it or it's second tier, whatever they want to call it. Now, of course, whenever we're aiming towards the next chapter, you know, even if it is to keep the lifestyle business, the boundaries, there's always something we're refining in the present, right?

unknown 25:40

Yeah.

Pedro Stein 25:40

Although we don't want to burn out, I get it. But what are you currently trying to improve or tighten up in your business right now?

Nancy Chu 25:48

I think the operations is one thing I'm trying to tighten up. There's a still a lot of manual work that is in my head, not yet shared with my team, or not yet shared with AI, or it's me operating some AI workflow on my own. Ideally, I don't hold so much information in my own head, and that I need, well, I want, I not not that I need, but I want other people to do it for me instead of me doing it on my own.

Pedro Stein 26:22

You're talking about systems and all of that. That really is aligned with the lifestyle business, so it doesn't rely so much in you, right? In your head. So we have to extract that data, that piece of information, yeah, get into an SOP, run for it with the team, and see if we can, you know, take off your plate some of that stuff so we can respect those boundaries. Okay, yeah, I get it. Now, at the start of the podcast, I mentioned uh I'm a comic book nerd, right? So let's do a little bit of a sci-fi thing here, real quick. So, Nancy, let's pretend we have a time machine in front of us. Okay, we're going to have two stops. One stop three and a half years ago, you can go back in time when Nancy Chu and Co. was founded, and you can give Nancy, your past self, one piece of business advice. You wish you knew back then that you know now. What would that be?

Nancy Chu 27:19

Hire help before you spend too much time trying to do it on your own. I also think it's coming from a place of entitlement, it's more of an investment. Yes, it is investing in yourself, but also it's to help yourself too. You would just learn so much if you could hire help sooner, dude.

Pedro Stein 27:38

You know what that sounds like to me? It sounds almost like because you're describing the I the ICP for me, right? Sign of weakness to reach out for help and all that. To me, it sounds like your journey in a way, right? In a good way, actually. It's almost like a humbling experience. Like reach out for help, you know? And it's almost like you're in a way helping other people to realize that it's okay to reach out for help, you know?

Nancy Chu 28:02

Oh, definitely. I think the biggest mindset block is that I don't I cannot afford help. I've hired so many coaches. I probably swing to the other end of the spectrum, which is I'm kind of addicted to getting coached. Now I don't want to figure anything out on my own anymore, which I don't think is healthy at all. Like everything in life needs to have a healthy balance. So I'm trying to come back to the middle. But I think where most people are is that coaching is expensive or hiring help is expensive, but they don't know how beneficial it is. And now I have a budget for coaching. I think not a lot of people actually budget for it, but for me, it's just part of how the business runs. I have a marketing budget, right? And so therefore, it's a no-brainer that I would also have a coaching budget. It's just a of course I would have a coaching budget. I wouldn't I would not, I would just not run a business without it.

Pedro Stein 29:02

Interesting. And like you remind me of a book, right? I you probably read that book, the Dan Sullivan one, The Who Not How.

Nancy Chu 29:08

Oh, yes, yes, love it. And also, uh 10x is easier than 2x.

Pedro Stein 29:13

Than two X. Uh-huh. Of course. Okay. Now we're gonna have our second stop, Nancy. Okay. Second stop, you can pinpoint a time. I know you may have several moments. Um, a moment in those 3.5 years, uh, three and a half years, that you felt so fulfilled, right? You felt like your cup was filled, and in a way you were like, Oh, this is why I started this.

Nancy Chu 29:39

Yeah. You know, and you may have several, like I said, but I want the top of mind that you have, like well, the gut instinct is whenever my clients get success, is that fulfillment moment because it's uh two sides of the same coin. If I were to tie the fulfillment with my client's success, then it means that if they're not able to see success, then I would basically question the validity of my business. It is a dangerous place to be. And to what I said earlier, everything has to be a healthy balance. I am fulfilled if I could provide high quality input into the system, but I cannot control the output of the system, right? And so I cannot have my fulfillment be tied to something that I cannot fully control. And so if I stand behind the inputs that I feed into the system and they're coming from a high quality, genuine, graceful place, then I feel fulfilled.

Pedro Stein 30:42

That is so interesting. Because it's not a done for you coaching at the end of the day, it's a done with you, right?

Nancy Chu 30:49

For sure.

Pedro Stein 30:50

So there is a variable, well, different variables there from the coaches work to do so. Like they need to put in the work, right? Okay. Now, how do you evaluate that you actually delivered great input if you're not tying with the outcome, right? In a way, you're tying with uh the input you're you're putting out there. How do you evaluate that?

Nancy Chu 31:12

I think a lot of it is reflection and trying to evaluate myself my own way, right? I I set my own bar. Of course, I get inputs from my coaches too, and then I get inputs from clients, I get inputs from the market, how is it landing with the market? So all of those are different variables that feed into how I set my own bar that I will use to validate my own work, whether or not or how can I continue to improve going forward, right? It's a very inward-facing process because that's within my control. And the act of active reflection or continuous reflection is what makes me better too.

Pedro Stein 32:01

Interesting. And now, if someone listening wants to connect with your follow your work, right? And by the way, we're gonna have all the links in the description, but where can people find you best, you know, and connect with you?

Nancy Chu 32:12

Yeah, I think if you like LinkedIn, the platform, you can find me there. If you like Substack the platform, you can find me there. If you like YouTube, the platform, I'm there too. Or if you just want to check out my website, it's nancychew.co.

Pedro Stein 32:27

Okay, Nancy. So there were a few moments from this chat that really stood out to me. Okay, I'm gonna highlight them real quick. I would say, first of all, back to the origin story. So we had a pivotal moment, the Roku layoff and uh travel bug, as it seems like. And you're yeah, and you're questioning reality, right? At that point, you're like, is this life? Is this what really is about? You know, do I chase for another uh go to the job market? Do I do my own thing? As it sounds like you picked this the letter, right? So you did your own thing. So that's cool to watch. Really love the entrepreneurial journey because at the end of the day, to me, it feels like it's a soul-wracking experience. It's like it exposes all of your vulnerabilities, you know.

Nancy Chu 33:16

It's it's a spiritual journey.

Pedro Stein 33:18

A hundred percent. Like being an entrepreneur, it is a freaking journey. I I'll tell I tell people that all the time. Yeah, now, second thing that popped up to my mind is when you were talking about how people were evaluating, like how many mock interviews do I get, you know? Yeah, yeah. So the tendency sometimes, but it's not the quantity, like mock interviews or even hourly rates, right? Because that's a classic in the space. Also, it's like, oh, he's charging X, Y, and Z for his hour, or do you do how many uh mock interviews? And I went through that path too, you know. I was charging by the hour in the early, early days, yeah, and that made me a commodity, you know, because people were comparing my fees to, I don't know, a dentist, a cleaning lady, a bummer, you know, it it gets wild. Stuff starts starts losing sense and uh it puts you in a bad spot. I love the fact that you framed that it's not about selling my time, I'm selling the outcome, which is a transformation at the end of the day, right? So if you can make the result happen with the input, compatible input, by the way, that you put out there in one mock interview. It's not about having one or ten, dude. Yeah, it's about having the right one, right? Let's save you time. Yes, yes, you know, and this is just my long-winded way of saying, Yeah, I appreciate what you do, Nancy, and I appreciate you being here and sharing so openly today. It was great having you having me.

Davis Nguyen 34:50

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