What High Performers Know About Career Growth with Ben Brooks

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets our guest is Ben Brooks, a renowned career strategist, HR innovator, and founder known for challenging traditional ideas of career progression and workplace success; we dive into what it really takes to build a meaningful and future-proof career, why the old “ladder” mindset no longer works, and how individuals can take ownership of their growth by thinking more strategically about skills, value, and impact, with insights drawn from Ben’s extensive experience working with global organizations and leaders exploring topics like career design, performance, leadership, and navigating change in today’s fast-evolving world.

You can find him on:
https://www.theliftpod.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/benbrooksny/
https://www.pilot.coach/
https://www.instagram.com/benbrooksny/

Podcast links:
https://open.spotify.com/show/1QBZYNYp9qRFA085bFvIXT
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lift/id1859041530
https://pod.link/aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL3RoZS1saWZ0

Transcript

Ben Brooks 0:00

You know, good coaches provide structure early, and then the clients exist in that structure. And clients will often resist structure, especially if they haven't had a coach before. So it's an important part of vetting. Can they exist in this dynamic and relationship independent of spending money?

Davis Nguyen 0:16

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wynne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to $100,000 years, $100,000 months, and even $100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight-figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over $100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, you'll discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Pedro Stein 0:47

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Pedro, and today I'm joined by Ben Brooks, who has identified and systematically addressed the five major talent challenges that are crushing organizations in today's transformed work environment, from high turnover to strain manager employee relationships. What makes Ben's approach with pilot remarkable is the measurable impact, reducing intent to quit by 20% and achieving a participation rate seven times the industry average across companies from Nestlé to MetLife. Ben's innovative solution tackles everything from workforce disengagement in hybrid environments to stalled DEI progress, providing organizations with advanced analytics, change management support, and dedicated customer success management. His work spans multiple industries, including insurance, financial services, healthcare, and technology, proving that when you address talent challenges systematically rather than reactively, both retention and succession planning transform at every organizational level. Also, Ben recently launched the podcast called The Lift. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Ben Brooks 2:10

Pedro, thanks for the great uh warm-up and welcome and excited to chat today.

Pedro Stein 2:15

Yeah, it's great to have you, you know, uh a fellow podcast. I'll tell you that. Okay. But I do love to rewind a bit and go back to the origin story, Ben, because every coach has that moment when they look at the life and say, Yeah, I guess this is what I'm doing now, right? So when was that for you, Ben?

Ben Brooks 2:33

Well, you know, I've had a Z-shaped career. So kind of zigging and zagging from, you know, working in, you know, grocery stores and parks departments, retail banking, summer camps, and wound up in the rental car business, defense contracting and spy planes, management consulting for airlines, and then HR. And that's where I got closest to coaching was HR and talent management, leadership development for a big global company. And so um I was, you know, focused on development at scale, understanding, you know, the business objectives and growth and the culture and the talent that needs to come behind it. But it was really when I took a career break, um, not even really a sabbatical, just a pause as I was going to move to a smaller company in HR, that people started calling me to get coaching. And I didn't have a business, I didn't have a website, I didn't have a LLC, I didn't have a business card, didn't have an email address other than my personal. Um, but that's actually kind of it found me more than I found it.

Pedro Stein 3:27

Okay. Now, one thing I love to learn about our guests is like when that shift happened, you know, from I'm helping people, I'm testing waters in the coaching space to I'm building a real business around this, you know. I'm not sure if it's the first paying client, the first invoice, but how that played out for you.

Ben Brooks 3:46

Yeah, I I um I remember when I was in the corporate world, we were doing some culture work and you know, people were post-engagement survey and some other things like that, and people were complaining about the company, right? The things they didn't like and how the competitors were. And, you know, these are middle management folks. And I and I heard this, it was a program that I was rolling out around the company, and I heard a story from our Houston, Texas office. And there's a woman in the corner, and everyone's complaining. And she said, if your grass is brown, water your own damn grass instead of looking for greener grass over the fence. And it kind of catalyzed me to think, yeah, there is something you can do about your dissatisfaction, about your impediments to success. And I think that more than ever, whether employees or entrepreneurs need to be far more self-directed and take really ownership at Pilot. We have a tagline, command your career. And so that was really this catalyzing moment of the difference. And I realized in my career, a majority of jobs I had, I actually created, even at big, giant Fortune 500 companies. I would pitch a job, I'd write a description, I'd make it up, I'd pitch it to someone, they'd say, Great, you're hired. Uh, so much easier recruiting process when you design the job and you're the only candidate. And these were some of the things I started to learn and from consulting. There's just a lot of secrets to success that I sort of learned from mentors and different environments I was in. And that's where I kind of got the kind of experience and the content. I had my own coaching, etc. But then it was when a friend connected me with what ended up being my first client. I can tell you the specifics of that, but that's really when I was like, oh, I actually have a business here, not just a skill or or a set of experience or talent.

Pedro Stein 5:22

Okay. Now we have different ventures. We have the B2 professionals, we have the pilot, and we have the podcast, the lift, right? But I want to understand one thing, okay? After you got rolling at the start, who are the people that kept showing up? Because especially in the coaching space, there's there are a lot of times that the coaches are trying to help everyone, right? It's just like, hey, I'm a coach, I'm trying to help you, let make your life better, and all that. But I want to understand it once you realize, okay, this is my tribe. This is the people that I can actually help the best, you know.

Ben Brooks 5:54

Well, I think I'll finish the answer the first question, then I'll get to that one. I think around my my client, you know, people that showed up for me were people that helped me got clients. And that was, you know, there's you don't have a business if you don't have revenue. And so you don't have a practice. You can't help people unless you have clients. And if they're not paying clients, they're not really clients. And so, you know, I I got introduced to to someone who I had, you know, mutually known, and he was a pretty prominent in his in his uh industry, in interior design, uh, top 100 in the in the country here in the United States. And, you know, remember we we talked and he's like, What do you do? And I need some help with my business. And we had some back and forths, and I and I and I said, Well, let's sit down and talk. Let me understand what your needs are. Right. It was kind of that prospecting conversation, that discovery. And, you know, I didn't have a business at the time, I was creating one. But I remember he said, Okay, he said, okay, and we lived in the same neighborhood here in Chelsea and Manhattan and New York City. And I said, Let's have breakfast. He said, Okay, well, how much does it cost? I said, Well, I'll I'll pay for the breakfast. This is a very wealthy guy who tries to Rolls Royce. And I said, Well, I'll pay for the breakfast. Don't worry about it. He said, Oh, no, but like, what's the what's the meeting with you cost to talk about these things? I said, Well, it doesn't cost anything. And his name is Jamie, and I saw him two days ago at a gala. We're still great friends 13 years later. And I and he's like, It doesn't cost anything. And he goes, Well, that doesn't make sense. He's like, How much does it cost? And I said, Well, look, here's the process. And you could tell he wasn't used to buying coaching services, right? So you have to kind of meet your prospect, your client where they are. And I said, Well, we're gonna sit down and I'm gonna ask you questions, I'm gonna take notes, and I'm gonna come back to you afterwards with a written proposal that'll have the exact cost in there and what you're gonna get for it. But I don't really know what you need, so I can't tell you what it's gonna cost. And he said, But how much is the breakfast? And I mean, I thought I was like gonna, I was gonna lose my mind. And he, and I said, I said, Well, the breakfast, he said, he's like, Look, at the breakfast, I'm gonna want value and I'm gonna ask you for advice and I'm gonna want good information and good advice isn't free. So, how much is the breakfast? And I said, $500. He said, Great, I'll see you Thursday. So, you know, we showed up, we had a 42-minute breakfast. At 42 minutes, he got up, he said, I gotta go. He throws a hundred dollar bill on the table and walks out, and he said, Thanks. So he paid me $500 for the breakfast, and then he put a hundred bill for the for our probably like $68 fancy brunch, uh, and it was 42 minutes. And that was the start of my business. And so I share that kind of to say that you know, your network is often the place. And it was a good friend of mine, Zach, that connected me to Jamie. And we had this sort of network, and you know, people I met in different places, and and you know, people I think focus a lot on like social media campaigns and email and websites. You're not gonna get clients like that initially, or that's a very slow and hard way to do it. It's from the network. So the people that showed up to your question, Pedro, you know, for me was there was certain folks around like coaching and the the craft of it, et cetera. But um, people were often wanting to introduce me to other coaches. And well, actually, coaches don't help me a lot. I need clients. Um, like I know how to coach, and I've got, you know, professional background in this, et cetera. If I can talk to a coach about their practice or how they charge or their packages, their rates, or you know, methods, boundaries, et cetera. There were some questions I had there, but that was everyone wanted to help me with like more coaches. And I was like, no, no, I want more clients. And so once I started asking for folks, that's who really showed up were the people that would be willing to make an introduction introduction, or people that would listen when they were in a conversation or at a dinner party or at an event, and someone would be talking about something. Have you ever consider working with a coach? Can I connect you with my my friend Ben? That was the absolute most important difference maker. And those people are people that I'm I have always wanted to pay back and felt very loyal to and very supported by. And I made sure that they felt appreciated.

Pedro Stein 9:22

I I love the story. Okay. First of all, uh, the the guy trying to pay you, and you're like, no, it doesn't work like that. And he's like pushing you, and you're like, okay, this is not gonna fly. Let me let me give you throw out a number. Um, because I I had you know, the pre-interview we did the vibe check, the 15-minute call. I'm like, I had people that are like, hey, um, how much is the fee? You know, I want to be on a podcast. I'm like, there's no fee, and then they're like pressing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to make sure, you know, like I'm joking, okay, man. Um, there's no fee, but at this stage, I'm I'm considering to charge you a fee because you can't stop asking, right? But there's no no, I'm just joking around. Now, you know, one thing that I would love to understand because it sounds like there's a lot of, at least at the start, right? There were there was a lot of referral-based uh style and and getting to know people's works, connections, and all of that. Now, today I want to understand marketing-wise, right? So, how do people usually find their way to your coaching practice to the in the first place?

Ben Brooks 10:21

So, I think, you know, um, across you know, my coaching practice, B2, and then pilot, we have a 50-person leadership development and culture professional services company. And, you know, there's different ways you market different businesses because B2 Professional Services is Ben, me, right? Pilot is technology, IP, 50 plus people, methods, etc. And so kind of depending on who the target audience or market is, you know, you have different methods. I have a degree in marketing and love marketing. And I think what I really, you know, focused on was, you know, what would be the thing, you know, because I focused on revenue. And I think I had some really great mentors or 10 or a lot of guys 10 or 15 years older than me that are New York City entrepreneurs. And, you know, New York City is, you know, the United States capital of, you know, uh, you know, can commerce and capitalism and arguably the worlds. So there's just a lot of people here who are great business owners and leaders. And these were not people in coaching, these are people in very different businesses. But they said, you want to be a revenue-first entrepreneur. Everyone starts a business and they think about what kind of money do I need? Well, what do you need money for? Expenses. Well, what expenses do you have? Oh, I gotta build a website and I gotta do this, and I've got to blah, blah, blah, blah, and set up QuickBooks and all this stuff. They said, Don't worry about any of that. Focus on making money. And that was the best advice I got. So when it came to marketing early on, it was the lowest cost way, asking for referrals, which is continued to be my number one source. And the conversion rate is very high, the fit is good, expectations are set around fees and price and things like that. And it's been a very virtuous cycle. And so largely that has been for my coaching practice, the vast majority of my efforts is the relationship management and development, creating a good reputation, you know, offering to be useful to others, you know, keeping a social drip out there that's not, hey, I'm a coach, but it's, hey, here's what I'm doing, here's what I'm up to in my life. So I'm in their ambient awareness. They think of me without me always hawking my services at them, right? Because that pushes people away. I share myself and my story or things that are valuable. And that gets us to the lift, my podcast. And we've invested a six-figure amount in getting that off the ground, a focus on modern leadership. And people can go to theliftpod.com and it's a 35-minute guest show weekly with people that are covering unusual angles from uncommon sources of leadership in the modern era. So a lot of leadership research and doctrine we have is very old, old data from different industries, different times before AI, before you know remote work, before cloud computing and collaboration things. So it's very different to get performance in this context and environment. So we focus on that. So that on the pilot side is now our primary way to attract attention is by adding value. We don't do any, we don't have sponsors on that. We're not even promoting pilot yet, but we are very much focused on making sure that we expose people to ideas and people they never would otherwise hear about because we take a pretty wide breath in a high quality, time-efficient way. So that's been a big part. So referrals for the pure coaching and then the podcast is a way to kind of create a longer drip of awareness and adding value first before asking for meetings or talking about a trade for dollars.

Pedro Stein 13:39

Okay. Adding value first. I love that because it it comes from a place of serving first instead of asking. Okay. I like that. Now, let me ask you this. Um, let's pretend actually. I listened to one of the podcasts on the left, okay, or even I was referred to work with you. And you can you can choose the company, okay? I know you have you have more than one. Now, let's pretend I'm uh we ended up on a sales call, whatever you want to call it, discovery, whatever I want to call it, or how your sales process works. But there's alignment, okay? Yeah, I turn to a client. Walk me through the the from my point of view, a client. How's it does it look like to work with you, for example?

Ben Brooks 14:17

Yes, I think you know, good coaches provide structure early, and then the clients exist in that structure. And clients will often resist structure, especially if they haven't had a coach before. So it's an important part of vetting. Can they exist in this dynamic and relationship independent of spending money? So, you know, you know, have a waiting list, you know, for my practice, and I've had that for years. I only work with a select number of people at any given time because I want to be very focused and dedicated to them. Plus, I'm the CEO of two other firms. So there's a limit to my calendar and what I can do. And so, you know, and so what I focus on is if you were to reach out for a referral, let's say for the coaching side, I introduce myself, right? And I let I do the research for, hey, here's my here's my website, here's my LinkedIn, here's the a video bio that we shot here in New York of me walking in the city talking about my experience and who I am, et cetera. So they get a sense of who I am, my face, what I sound like, what I look like, et cetera. And then I say, hey, if you'd like to chat about coaching, the next step is to fill out this intake form. And the intake form takes five minutes, mobile enabled, but I want to know their objectives on coaching, their prior experience with coaching, why now, where is it coming from, you know, what I can expect for them as a client, because I don't want to wait till I have the call to learn those things. I want to learn them in advance so I can spend more time diving in and having sort of like mini coaching moments rather than just discovering intake and make sure I can cover the offering. So the thing is that's really critical. And I'll tell you if this is a is a real good client filter for coaches out there or professionals. Do not book the meeting until they fill out the form. It's always attention. Say, well, I'll fill it out before, later. Let's just get a time on the calendar, talk to my assistant, da da da da. Here's a link. And I say, Great, here's the process. You fill out the form, then we'll book the session. And so the people that resist that generally never end up on the phone with me, which saves me time, right? Because they're not coachable, right? They can't follow a structure. So you want to figure out ways to vet people out of your funnel quickly, right? And I disqualify them if they're not able to follow instructions. And it's not because I'm trying to control them, but it's to say, hey, we're gonna have an effective call if I know something about you versus showing up with a stranger is rather awkward. And this way I can start it with, you know, intention, et cetera. We have that call. I understand, and I'm assessing them. Are they someone that I think is open and coachable? And are they up to something? Those are my primary two things, independent of qualifying in terms of like fees and things. I don't want to work with people that don't want to be coached, right? And surprisingly, a lot of people pay for coaching that don't want to be coached. And then number two, I want them to have a to be up for something, which is sort of Latin for do they have objectives or goals around coaching? Is this a vitamin? Or are they saying, no, I am figuring out what I want and I want a coach to help me figure out how to get it? So that is what I vet them. I tell them they want to vet me. I talk about my approach, the five methods that I bring into my coaching practice, the structure, the package, the fees, et cetera. And I say, you should evaluate me on credibility and chemistry. Do you believe me? Would you trust me? Would you listen to me seriously on the credibility?

unknown 17:19

Right?

Ben Brooks 17:20

Do I seem like a knucklehead or someone you'd really listen to? And then number two, chemistry. How would you feel? Would you feel at ease if you saw my name on your phone screen? Are you looking forward to it? Because you got to have that fit. And oftentimes we don't tell prospects or clients enough that they need to feel the chemistry. And I say, my ethical code as a coach is if you if I'm not for you, I'm not gonna take that personally, and I'm gonna help refer you to someone that is, because my job is to help you get to the right provider, not necessarily to get business from you. Puts them at ease. Then we talk about a next step and I say, Hey, what's your decision by when you're gonna make? And I put an accountability, which is what I do in my coaching practice. And if they resist that, I can kind of see they might not be a good client, right? And I say, You tell me by when you're gonna decide. You're a yes or a no to move forward with coaching. What's a reasonable deadline? Sometimes they'll say like four months, and I'll be like, Well, that is not someone that's serious, right? And so I said, How about you know, you let me know when you, you know, but something that gives you time, we define that. And I say, look, I'm gonna send you an email. There's one more form you'll fill out if you're a yes. This is the contracting, your address and how you're gonna pay and all these different things, who schedules your calendar. We get all that sort of, and I said, and if I don't hear you from you by that date, and it's a date in a time in a time zone. So Friday, the 29th of April at 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, I get very specific and I see how they react to that level of accountability. And then if I don't hear from you, I'm gonna assume that you're a no and I'm not gonna hold any space from you, and I can't commit that there will be any from a waiting list perspective. So, you know, if I hear from you, you're yes, we'll move forward. If I don't hear anything, then you're a no. And we leave it at that. And I say if you have questions, let me know. And we have that follow-up email. That's sort of the process uh that I go through. Pedro, is that answering your question?

Pedro Stein 18:56

It does. I love how you're creating friction top of the funnel, you know. Yep. So we don't waste time middle of the funnel, uh, you know, and bottom. So that makes a lot of sense. I love the reminder of a pre-qualification filter. I think that's very powerful, you know, and a lot of coaches miss uh the ball on that. Now, what are the outcomes I should be expecting? Well, let's say I turn to a client and follow the five methods you mentioned. What am I expecting at the end of the line?

Ben Brooks 19:26

Well, I think expectation management is a is a critical part because you know there's a there's a give get here, right? And I think sometimes we think about the client has to give fees, but they need to give a lot more than fees, right? They need to give consistency, they need to give owning their accountabilities, they need to give making sure that things are scheduled and they have time for it, right? So try to be very, I said this is sacred time, you know, you don't same day cancel on me or reschedule, you lose your session, period. And I said, that's not for me, that's for you. Because if you can deprioritize me, then you're deprioritizing you and what you want coaching to be about. This needs to cut through. This needs to be the board meeting for you. You don't flake on your board, right? You're not too busy and slammed and need to, you know, need to need to move this. And, you know, I then we get very clear about their outcomes, you know, what are they trying to achieve? So I'm clear about the money they're gonna give me, I'm clear about the time they need to give, the behaviors, and then on my side, I say, you know, fundamentally coaching. If I boil it down to two things, coaching from my perspective, and there's a lot of ways to do coaching. There's no right or wrong way. This is just how I see it, is about helping clients define what they want and how to get it. So that's the the results, the outcomes is getting what they want.

Pedro Stein 20:45

Okay. It's the plan, the blueprint to get what you actually want. That makes sense.

Ben Brooks 20:49

Well, more than the plan, it's the actioning. Because like plans, you it could be a fantasy, right? Oh, I'm gonna do that one day, oh, I should do this, or I'm gonna create a blog, or I'm gonna go to this conference. I'm like, no, no. You know, I'm gonna like, you know, sometimes it's about letting someone go. Say, okay, when are we gonna let that person go? Humanely and thoughtfully. You know, they're a pain in the ass on your team. When are we gonna do that? Or oh, you know, oh, so you you know, I had one person that they want to be the president of their industry association. All right. What are the bylaws? Who's the current president? Do you know them? What you know, how long is the terms? How do you get nominated? Like, and we get into it, and it's not a plan, they do it, and then they became the president of their industry association.

Pedro Stein 21:28

Okay. Let's say I joined the session, but uh Pedro is not that guy that is following through, right? You're like, hey, when you're gonna fire that that person. I'm like, yeah, next week we meet two weeks, and I'm like, hey, did you fire that? I'm like, no, what happens?

Ben Brooks 21:45

Well, so it's a it's a you know, a key thing on accountability, which is not shame or blame or making people feel bad or finger pointing or barking orders at them. I don't believe in those things. And I my clientele is typically extremely high achieving, you know, top five percent of professionals. You know, in the world, in their fields. So I don't work with people that are struggling or broken, et cetera. It's a different type of practice that I'm not as good at that, right? I work with like really excellent people to take them to the next level. That's really what I'm best at. But those people can be real clever about to explain why they didn't do something, right? You know, the smarter you are, the better you are at bullshitting and justifying and everything else. And so part of cutting through that is we always start a session with the same three things. Their temperature check. How am I meeting? Pedro, are you having the best day of your life, the worst day of your life somewhere in between? Where am I meeting you? Right. Accountabilities based on last time. We agree these are the accountabilities. And I keep notes of that. They keep notes. If they haven't notified me in advance, which sometimes that's our agreement, I say, hey, you're going to do this, this, and this. How did that go? We don't call it homework. We don't call it assignments. I'm not their teacher. I don't assign things. These are their accountabilities that they define. And then they say, I did it or I didn't do it. And then if they did it, I'd say, Well, what did you learn from it? Like, how did that go? And if I didn't, if they didn't do it, I'd say, well, what got in the way? What are the restraining forces? We explore rather than just immediately say, Well, when are you going to do it again? And set a new deadline. And we say, Well, what got in the way, right? Is this? And then I say, Is this something you still want to do? And sometimes the answer is no. I said, So let's not have that be an accountability that we just click into the future. Let's just eliminate it. Right. But then if we look at the propelling forces that help them achieve the result and the restraining forces that keep them from that result or that goal, that ends up being the coaching, the development part. Sometimes it's fear and anxiety. Sometimes they're disorganized. Sometimes it's overwhelmed. Sometimes they um are undisciplined. Sometimes it's some other sort of thing. They've made it too complicated or they're looking for their perfection. It's got to be the perfect time to have that conversation. And so that's where they start to learn a lot about themselves of where they get in their own way and where they get out of their own way.

Pedro Stein 23:44

Okay. I got it. Got it. Okay. Now your work seems pretty hands-on, Ben. You know, we're talking about a podcast. Um, more uh other two companies also. Now, there's a thing in the coaching space that I I really like to play the devil's advocate, which is something like, hey, more often than not, we see a lot of coaches preaching against, you know, burnout and all of that, but coaches are sometimes wearing all the hats. And I know you have a team that supports you and all that, but I want to understand how do you think about capacity so you don't stretch yourself too thin, you know?

Ben Brooks 24:20

Yeah, I think there's there's um it's a great question. I think part of is role clarity. And so what are the things I do versus the things I don't do? So I don't do bookkeeping. I have a bookkeeper, right? Um, I don't do invoicing, you know. My executive assistant does that. I don't do contracts, you know, or I don't do scheduling. So part of my capacity is a function of how sort of vertically integrated in the coaching am I or not. When I started this 13 years ago, there weren't a lot of great tools. Now there's unbelievable tools that are unbelievably cheap that can help you. There's virtual assistants and there's third-party things, et cetera. So my capacity is really about in front of client time versus all the admin time. And a lot of coaches spend as much time doing admin as they do doing billable work in front of clients. I try to do as little admin as possible because I can have a lot more impact and make a lot more money in front of a client, and I can have other people and tools and services make the admin happen. So part of my capacity, I engineer more because I only keep my role very narrow, which is the actual coaching live in a conversation. And then from the perspective of like how much do I have in that particular role, you know, we built a forward-looking financial and capacity model. So I have to look and we use color coding on my calendar for all sorts of different things. So I know how many clients I have. I can look, you know, forward and backwards of hours per week. I can start to look at some of that trending. And color coding calendar is a very easy way, it doesn't cost you any money, it's very simple. Um, but then I started to kind of get the sense of that carrying capacity because I did have times where I had a few too many. And I started to kind of understand where the kind of the upper and lower thresholds were for that and what I'd be willing to do, you know, or what kind of clients, you know, energize me or or didn't, you know, what structures work. So there's a lot of experimentation you have to do with these things. But now, you know, I have a tracker and I understand the duration of my engagements with each client, right? The rates, the payment terms, the frequency, et cetera. And I know when those are gonna be. And so when someone's like, hey, can you take on another client or not? It's not a gut feeling. I can say, hey, if I think that this is more or less my capacity of having X number of clients, where are they at? And say, actually, I got two people that are rolling off. We're not gonna renew. I think the challenge I have is, you know, about 90% of my clients want to work with me after the first engagement for multiple years. So I don't have a lot of client churn, but we're always renewing on shorter-term agreements to keep it fresh. And so that's where I have to really manage the capacity too, because I can't just keep adding and adding and adding because I don't have churn, which is great, you know, from a relationship. It's really rich, amazing work to see people over years and different jobs and places do things. Um, and also creates a really good predictable uh revenue and income.

Pedro Stein 27:02

Okay. Now I'm curious about where you're taking all this, you know, Ben. Looking ahead a bit, where do you see the business going? Are you thinking about scaling, hiring, or is there a next step you're excited about? I know we talked before the podcast, your uh the the lift, right? Your own podcast. So you're excited about that, but what does the future look like for you now?

Ben Brooks 27:21

Yeah, so that you know, I'm not trying to create a bunch of mini bends. Um I've worked in professional services and it's it's hard to duplicate out a single person. You know, you can do certifications or courses and stuff like that. I'm less interested in that. I don't think I'm a very scalable approach. I'm pretty unique myself, and so I'm not looking for that. But I think pilot is really where it's scalable. So we figure out the things that work really well in a one-on-one coaching, which could be around accountability, decision making, um, you know, goal setting, um, self-reflection, exploration, feedback, uh, defining standards, holding people accountable, um, all these under getting unmet needs met, all these different things you might have challenge, you know, feedback. And we've built those into products and solutions that are highly scalable, that we work with companies big and small, all around the world on five continents. And so part of the lift is to get more people engaged in a conversation around a better way to grow and develop as managers and executives and help organizations do that collectively. Because when you do it systemically, anytime you have a behavior change, you do it with others. You're quitting smoking, you're training for a marathon, you're raising money, you're staying sober, you have better results when you do it with others. And so we do have some, you know, group coaching programs, but it's also we work kind of systemically within organizations. So for us, you know, getting in front of people every week for 35 minutes with incredibly sophisticated, you know, we got the dean of the London Business School, we got the highest rated professor at Harvard Business School, we've got, you know, CEOs of award-winning companies, you know, people that have won, you know, super innovative people that have been knighted by the queen and stuff. We we put those people in front of folks to get them in the growth mindset. And they already then have a relationship with us because they're already growing and getting coached through the podcast every week. And we have follow-on assets and things. And then eventually they're like, oh, this is great. Wonder if we could do something like this for my company. And that's really where I see the growth coming from.

Pedro Stein 29:12

So it's from pilot. You say, yeah, that's the scalable asset you have.

Ben Brooks 29:16

Yes, yes, because there's only, you know, one of the only fair things in the world is we all have 24 hours in a day, you know, and Beyonce makes a lot of good use of her 24 hours. Um, I'm not Beyonce, but I I stretch my my uh hours pretty far, but I can't generate more hours, right? And I do, you know, I'm a Libra. I like my balance. I like to, you know, take, you know, weekends off when I can. You know, I take vacations, I take, you know, two week vacations twice a year, and I try to do zero work, not even look at my, I've had many times I have no, I don't look at my email for two straight weeks. And I run a business with you know 50 employees and customers around the world. But that's also part of as a business owner, I don't want to work 365 days a year. I don't want to work 52 weeks a year. So I have to build the structures and systems that people can still be supported from a client perspective, and my team is supported and empowered, but I'm not having to work all the time. And so that's been a big part of building something more scalable. Because if it's just me, if I take a week off, we lose a bunch of revenue. Right now, if I take a week off with pilot, we don't lose any revenue. So that's the scalable model as a business that's not just selling my time.

Pedro Stein 30:20

Okay. Okay, let me ask you this because I had people in the show that had like 20 coaches and they were telling me that they're gonna replace all of them with AI. I had people that are like creating a chat bot to replace the coach. Uh, what does that look like for your for for you, you know, the AI advancement into that type of content, the coaching practice and all that? But how does that play out for specifically pilot, right? How does that look like to work with pilot? I'm curious about that.

Ben Brooks 30:52

It's a great question. And look, AI has incredible transformative potential. I use it on my personal life a great deal. Um, there's a lot of considerations around, you know, ethical, environmental bias, et cetera, you know, security to be mindful of. And we do a lot of training at pilot around that. And we use some of these tools internally, very selectively with our IT security team auditing them, et cetera. So um it's uh it's both to kind of be excited about it, but we're at a scale and work with the sophisticated customers that we have to also be quite measured. I think the idea that of like AI replacing coaches is stupid. I think it's it's incredibly unsophisticated about coaching and incredibly unsophisticated about AI. And I have a decent sense of AI and I have a in it, and I have a great sense of coaching. You know, AI in general, companies are saying, oh, we're gonna replace people with AI. The technology is not designed to do that, right? The technology is not a one-for-one human enroll replacement. And in fact, there's things that technology does that's much better than humans, right? Consistent. No, they don't have moods or emotions, they don't have sick days, you know, really good at, you know, remembering data, doing it fast, structured ways, et cetera. But there's a lot of things AI is not, does not do well, and I don't think will potentially do well any in any sort of near or midterm. You know, emotional intelligence, adaptability, conflict, cultural competence, you know, you know, curiosity, interventions, et cetera. AI is looking for patterns, and a good coach will look for patterns within the client, but AI is going to look for patterns that it's seen before in other people and sort of project them on someone, which I don't think is actually great coaching to tell someone or pathologize for someone. You need to help them discover it for themselves. So I think can AI help coaches in general? Absolutely. Can it help them be efficient on their business operations? You know, could it help them maybe synthesize notes? Can it help them create content? Yes, but you know, the kind of person that's gonna pay real money for coaching isn't gonna substitute that with a chat bot. That is like tomfoolery. Someone that pays good money for a coach, you know, because no different than Pedro, if you have a medical issue, you're not gonna say, you know what? I'm just gonna talk to a chat bot. I'm not gonna go to the emergency room, I'm not gonna go to a cancer specialist, you know, or dermatologist. I'm just gonna that so that's a different market. Now it doesn't mean that you know, look, you can ask coaching questions and get great advice. I was exhausted last night at one in the morning. I had to figure something out. There was kind of a minor thing. I just told, I asked, I asked, you know, one of our chat uh AI tools, what do you think I should do? Right. Super helpful around a tactical consumer decision. I was you know picking out betting for a guest room of mine, like that I didn't want to think through much, but I wanted to get the right stuff. So like it can be very, very, very helpful. And I'm I'm I'm bullish on it. But whenever I see sort of like AI coaching out there, coaching is not where, like of all the things, it would not be where I'd say, let's let's replace a human with with AI. That'd be like one of the last places, right? When it comes to like data entry, you know, spreadsheet building, uh, checking, reports, integration, like things that are like mechanized, automation is like great place to use AI. But in lieu of someone with highly specialized skills in an interpersonal relationship, I think most people are hitting a wall because people won't open up to the AI, they won't trust it, they don't know where the data goes, they don't know whatever. There's no accountability, there's no interpersonal that, you know, if someone's having a mental health issue, a physical drug and addiction, doesn't know how to handle those things. So I think it's irresponsible for a lot of coaching use cases to say that's going to be replaced. And can it help you do basic things? Can it help you have prepare your talking points to ask for a race to your boss? Great. Great. You know, can it help you figure out, you know, if you should report something to HR or not and say, well, yeah, what are your policy? Like, so it can be useful to people, but in a very sort of topical manner rather than an enduring relationship. And imagine ignoring the snooze or the alerts on accountability from an AI. You just like you wouldn't care. But when there's a human you're sitting across a table or a Zoom from, you feel a lot more social pressure to achieve and deliver that you'll never feel with a tech interface.

Pedro Stein 35:04

Yeah, 100%. That's my TED Talk. That's my TED Talk, Pedro. Yeah, that's my that's my monologue. Okay. You know, I I was reading this week, I forgot his name, but it's like one of those AI specialists. And then it was like the face-to-face jobs are going to be the last one to be replaced. Yes, which makes perfect sense. And coach is a face-to-face job, yes, you know, at the end of the day, so yeah.

Ben Brooks 35:22

Relationships will be an enduring advantage in an AI-enabled economy because AI isn't relationships and can't do relationships. It can you can have agents that can help you remind you that you haven't talked to someone in a month. That can be helpful. Those tools are cool. Hey, this is the person you said is really important in your life, or this is someone that's a really important customer. I see you haven't emailed or texted or called them, they're not on your account. Amazing use of AI to help you get back to relationship, right? So this is kind of the, you know, uh, I have a lot of issues with Peter Thiel, but he talked about in zero to one, you know, the human machine symbiosis. And is some we talk in in AI, it's like humans in the loop. So it's not that it's a magic button that just does it. And that's typically when you hear someone talking like that, someone that typically doesn't is as unsophisticated on AI is that they think it's this magic in a box. People that think that are typically unsophisticated and they're gonna hit a wall. The people that say, hey, AI has got a lot of capability, but you have to figure out the division of labor. What do the humans do that humans are uniquely good at? And what does the eight AI do that AI is uniquely good at? And how do you blend that together to create the value? And so simply replacing entire people is is is generally a leading indication of stupidity.

Pedro Stein 36:34

Oh my God, that's so funny. That is, I mean, I my brother is like a PhD, and he's like has a startup on AI specifically here in Brazil. And uh he explains to me like I'm not an expert, right? But the way he explains to me, it's way more basic than people realize. It's like it's not that big of a deal.

Ben Brooks 36:52

Yeah, and it's powerful, it's more powerful than anything we've ever had. It's incredible, but you know, your brother's is more credentialed than I am and more believable than I am, given his academic background and what he's doing. And just this idea that we put this blind faith in things. You see, there's some research around, and I'm not going to name any particular tools, you know, because that's not my role, but you know, you see some research that AI is good at manipulating us, it flatters us, you know. Oh, Pedro, it's what a great question. You're so strategic, you know. And so if you want it, you know, if you want someone to kind of suck up to you and it and it gets into our egos, but it can lead us astray, it can miss things, it can whatever. We don't, and we don't ask it the things we're, you know, because AI is only as good as what you ask it to do. And so, you know, unless you have like super prompts or a genetic things, which again, I'm very skeptical about. I think that's the whereas, again, I'm pro AI and I think there's a lot of good uses in it, but seldom are we at a place right now where in any industry, AI just like replaces the job. It may replace the process, it may replace the task, it may replace um how something gets done. But that's where you have to really kind of take a process and kind of um, you know, work breakdown structure and an industrial engineering lens to say which of these parts can we have done or not? So analyzing survey data, which I might have used to done individually, I can now code qualitatively with AI, but I'm still gonna then look at the insights and understand the applicability to the someone's feedback report and how it ties to the business goals and why it's gonna get in the way of some of the emotional stuff that they struggle with. AI is not gonna do all that.

Pedro Stein 38:27

True. You know, and Ben, of course, whenever we're aiming towards the next chapter, right? Always something we're refining in the present. So what are you currently trying to improve or tighten up in your business right now?

Ben Brooks 38:38

Well, I'll tell you two things. One is, you know, operations. I'm a huge believer in operational excellence. I got my six Sigma black belt. I love that. And and people tend to just cut, they just kind of transact and they don't realize how efficient, inefficient they are. So we're actually doing a project right now to up level all my coaching operations, standardize all the e-signature tools and the rates and the contracts, and we have different terms and conditions over time and things. So we're working a lot on operations just so that admin stuff has fewer times that it has to touch me or have to approve things. Um, because things have changed in 12 years or 13 years that I've been a coach. And some of what the stuff we have is legacy stuff we've learned. So if you've done this a while, you kind of need to reset often because you're dealing with legacy things or ways of working. So we've actually brought in someone from the outside to help us redesign sort of coaching operations, including now, where do we keep, you know, like clients now sort of like want a digital notebook? And we've had different technology we've used. We use some very simple things now that are working really well. That's not something we even had in 2013 to think about, other than an Evernote folder here and there or something. And now Evernote's basically defunct. So that's number one. Number two is automated marketing, sort of marketing automation is probably probably the better way to say it. You know, a lot of marketing things that we have done have been sort of one-off or very um, uh, this is where it's like, you know, marketing stuff in terms of distribution or production can be done with technology very well. Now, not completely, right? You don't need it, you don't need to not have a marketing department or a marketing leader, but you know, there's some things where we can be much more regular and consistent. So around the podcast, we're really working to say, hey, my role in that from a role clarity should be the talent and the strategist, right? I help, I help host the thing. I think I'm a very good host. I'm learning and getting better. We help select the right guests, you know, and we do that. I have a production company that produces it, but then nobody listens to something, whether it's podcast content or it's a video you're making on YouTube or shorts or TikTok or whatever it is, that you've got to get that out there. And so part of what I'm trying to do is not have it be this manual thing of, oh, let me post this on LinkedIn or let me do this. But it's really saying, hey, if we have an episode, what are the 19 different things we're gonna do every single time? And I'm not gonna do them. So our company, we have email signatures that we launched this week that are now controlled centrally for every email account at our company. And it features the current podcast episode for that week and it changes color. And so now every email we send every week has a little display advertisement for the podcast. Now, none of my employees need to change it. One person centrally changes it in the back end. It takes 10 minutes a week, but that's the marketing automation. And so those are the things that we're working on to really make sure that all the great content that we create. And this is where I see coaches out that, you know, create really great content that nobody sees. They add it to their blog, they get three website visitors a month, you know, um, and that doesn't get you anywhere. So that's you know, kind of the coaching operations and then the marketing automation is what we're working on right now.

Pedro Stein 41:29

Yeah, that's the line we we were talking about, right? About using automations where they fit and not exactly just trying to push into every place. Now, if someone listening wants to connect with you or follow your work, and they're in the description, we're gonna have all the likes, but specifically, is there anything you want to address? You know, where can people find you and connect with you?

Ben Brooks 41:48

So appreciate it. Yeah, so the liftpod.com, we're on 33 different podcast platforms. If you find the lift on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen, please subscribe. You'll get a note every Tuesday when it comes out. We also on the liftpod.com have not just show notes that are episode summary, but we actually take it and build an editorial piece that continues the conversation, that enhances it with research, and it's something you can share with your teams. And we're gonna be launching pod sheets. So if you listen to a podcast you really like, you can share it with one of your clients. And it actually is a discussion guide or one of your teams. And so it furthers the conversation and makes the listener successful with others. Find me on LinkedIn. I'm very findable. I got 30,000 plus people I'm connected with there. So please follow me on LinkedIn. We share a lot of good resources and tools there. And then pilot or www.pilot.coach. And if you like uh fluffy white dogs and you want to see me and my dog on Instagram, you can find me Ben Brooks NY is in New York.

Pedro Stein 42:37

You know, Ben, there were a few things that you shared today that really stayed with me, I would say. First of all, the origin story, right? The growth from grocery store to HR and all that, and moving to our own practice uh on that breakfast, right? 500 buck back breakfast. That is pretty cool. I love that. That is that is very grounded, you know. And um, that's one thing. The other is like when you mentioned also in the origin story about the grass, you were like, you start telling me, and I was like, here's it, the grass is greener. I'm thinking, right? And you're like giving me the exact analogy because at the end of the day, it's ownership of your own destiny versus victim mentality, it sounds like, right? So that's one thing that I think it's very powerful. The the last but not least reminder, which I really think is very powerful for all coaches listening, is that do not book the meeting before they fill out the form, right? And I know there is some scarcity meant mindset behind it. It's like, hey, I need a client, so I'm gonna accept the the bare minimum, which is like just them booking a call, and I have not a lot of calls and all of that. And then especially in the early days, I can I can tell that that's an obstacle that people more often than not need to overcome in the coaching space. Because if you don't set yourself as valuable, others won't. You know, they're like, hey, you're gonna accept this, and then are gonna be a no show and a rate which is gonna be super high, people that are not. Actually engage people that are hopping on a call and say, Hey, what can you do for me? Are you going to solve my problems? All that, you know, the magic bullet. Yep. So this is my long-winded way of saying, Ben, that I appreciate what you do and I appreciate you being here and sharing so openly today. You know, great having you on, man.

Ben Brooks 44:16

Thank you, Pedro. And I appreciate what you reflected back to me. I learned just from what you shared there. And I do think that sense of ownership for one's career and life, you know, if it's something that's I say, if it's going to be, it's up to me. And I think to your point around the boundaries, you know, you really want to set yourself up in a position of authority and you want people to take you seriously, not just to do business with you, right? But to do the work with you. And that's the, you know, you're often working with people who are in positions of power and executives. They don't have anyone, you know, people at their company don't challenge them because they want to keep their job or keep their bonus or get invited to the offsite or go golfing with them. You can be one of the only people in their life that challenges and puts them in their place in an appropriate and consensual way. Um, and that's an important structure you need to adhere to. And the last little bonus tip I'll give everybody get paid first. Do not do postpay. You want the client to have skin in the game. And when they have paid, they will get their money's worth and you'll get better coaching outcomes from them. And then you don't have collections with accounts receivable. That becomes something that gets in the way of the client coach relationship. The client coach relationship should all be about the client, right? What they want, how to get it, the support they need, the outcomes they want, and it's about them. It's not about you and it's not about your business. You are in service of them. But it's important to get a contract and to get paid in advance. And so they will show up for more sessions if you pay. They will take it more seriously, they will be more satisfied with you. And you don't get into a situation with people that owe you a bunch of money you have to chase down, which is a nightmare as a business owner. So I will say, you know, that's a part of the boundary too, is set it all along the way. And it's a test for your clients to see if they can handle structure because coaching at its best, in my view, there's a lot of different views on it. There's not one right way, is a rigorous structured intervention that helps people get out of their own way to get what they want.

Pedro Stein 46:12

Yeah, I think keyword commitment, right? And you you brought me back to my college days before we close out. It's like whenever I was playing taxes honing with my buddies at no stakes, they were like, all ins, right? Everyone's super bold. And then you add a dollar to the pot, and they're like, oh my God.

Ben Brooks 46:29

Yeah, you can't change entirely. Yeah, you want to see someone, you know, if they're serious or not, have stakes, right? And whether you're betting the rent or you're betting money or, you know, uh something else, like that makes it real. And I think that's the part it was even when we look at coaches for pilot, we say, you know, everyone's, oh, I got a coaching certification, I got coaching training, or I do coaching internally at my company, or I coach some of my co-workers. Great, you have a coaching practice. If people have paid you for money for your coaching skills, you are far more credible than someone with 18 coaching certifications. So I think that's a big part of it because it really tests can you articulate your value? And that's a big part of you know, relevance is can you, you know, articulate and help them solve with your capabilities and needs and get paid for it. That's commerce. Cavemen, we traded things with stones and sticks and things. We're not that different now, but you got to make sure that value exchange is there and that ideally for them, it's an IQ test. It makes so much sense for them to get what they want. And if they have to pay you coaching fees and some time to do that, that should be a fraction of the value they're getting on a 10x basis and the outcomes they're gonna deliver.

Pedro Stein 47:30

Hmm. Appreciate you sharing this today with us. Thank you.

Davis Nguyen 47:34

Thanks, Pedro. That's it for this episode of Career Coaching Secrets. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can subscribe to YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to this episode to catch future episodes. This conversation was brought to you by Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to seven and eight figures without burning out. To learn more about Purple Circle, our community, and how we can help you grow your business, visit JoinPurpleCircle.com.