From Air Force to Coaching: Michael Peineger’s Leadership Journey

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets, host Pedro Stein sits down with Michael Peineger, a leadership coach who’s helped thousands of managers and leaders improve team performance and business results.

Michael shares his journey from the Royal Australian Air Force to building Developing Leaders, his business focused on executive coaching, leadership workshops, and assessment tools. He dives into marketing strategies, client pre-qualification, and the importance of helping leaders gain confidence, manage time effectively, and build high-performing teams.

Whether you’re starting or scaling a coaching business, this episode offers practical insights and actionable strategies to grow your impact.

Connect with

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelpeiniger-pcc-executivecoach-leadershiptraining-melbourne/?skipRedirect=true
Website: https://www.developingleaders.com.au/leadership-performance-profiling/

Transcript

Michael Peiniger 0:00

About 10 years ago went through a business name change. So I loved the concept of our business called chameleons. So a chameleon changing with its environment and its mood and our marketing sat with that. But people struggled to find us. The chameleon and leadership development doesn't necessarily gel and fit. And we'd always been called chameleons developing leaders. So dropping the front part made some of the marketing and imagery and colours a little bit different, but the the name itself just really honing in on what is it we do?

Davis Nguyen 0:31

We develop leaders. So welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wynne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to $100,000 years, $100,000 months, and even $100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight-figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over $100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, you'll discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Pedro 1:04

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Pedro, and I'm joined today by Michael Peineger, who develops leaders to build high-performing teams that deliver sustained business results. Over the last few years, his taught almost 4,000 leaders and managers to improve team performance and business results, helping leaders feel more confident and assured leading their teams. Michael offers a comprehensive suite of leadership development solutions, including executive leadership coaching, the leadership essentials program, and the checkpoint leadership profile assessment tool. His specialties span executive coaching, leadership training, group workshops and dynamics, and leadership assessments, all designed to help CEOs and managers get the best out of their teams. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Peiniger 2:04

Thank you very much, Pedro. Wow, what an intro. I'd I need uh someone to give that full spiel more often in uh workshops and coaching.

Pedro 2:13

Yes, exactly. And you know, Michael, you're the one to blame, you know? It's all my fault. On top of it, we were talking pre-podcast, like 21 years in the game, right? So let's go back to the origin story and rewind a bit because every coach, Michael, has that moment where they look at their life and say, Yeah, I guess this is what I'm doing now, right? So when was that for you?

Michael Peiniger 2:37

For me, that was probably at the tail end of my Air Force career. After leaving high school, I I joined the Royal Australian Air Force here in Australia and spent 14 hard, grueling, fun, exciting years in the Air Force, mainly less time in the air and mainly working with people. And after leaving that institution, I wanted to continue working with people, uh, particularly in the field of leadership. My last role in the Air Force was as the chief instructor at the officers' training schools, designing, developing, and teaching leadership to uh what I thought would be young adults, but it was people anywhere from the age of 18 through to 52 who wanted uh to work in that uh in that realm. And I absolutely adored it. So my origin story started working in leadership a little bit one-on-one, but mainly in a group setting and a group assessment setting. And then when I started my business that was called Chameleons Developing Leaders in 2004, it was all around leadership development. So mainly at that time in training, doing lots of workshops, doing lots of training programs, both our own and working in-house in different businesses. And coaching was kind of the next evolution. It was wanting to have a greater impact with those leaders that we were working with at the time. So the the group programs were wonderful, but in larger businesses, certainly my experience was less impact. So two kind of things happened when we moved, when I moved into that coaching space was one, getting very much more targeted and working out the client that we work best with, not necessarily picking a group, but finding where we had our greatest impact. And uh, or I had my greatest impact because at that point it was mainly just me. And then that opportunity to work one-on-one. And I think it was a client that asked, I said, Do you offer one-on-one uh coaching or work? And listened to the uh the positive side of my brain that went, Yes, of course. Inside going, we'll work out the details of this later, as opposed to finding every reason why we couldn't. So it was a a little embryonic to start with, but uh has become a real cornerstone of the work that we do at developing leaders.

Pedro 5:09

Interesting. Now, I apologize, but the dad in me of two boys needs to tell you that you're kind of the CEO's wingman with that Air Force career as a background, right? I'm sorry about I apologize about the terrible joke, okay?

Michael Peiniger 5:25

No, no, no. I have I have spent so much time, particularly on the website or in our marketing space, deciding how much or how little of a an ex-Air Force background we put in and the the checkpoint that we use. So the psychometric that you mentioned in the the intro, the marketing of that has so many little images and planes. And and while I love using the flight metaphor, I think it's fantastic for talking about a journey or encountering turbulence in life or in work. I was never a pilot. My hand-eye coordination was so bad. Well, I thought it was good until I saw some people whose hand-eye coordination during testing, it's like, oh my god, now I know why they are pilots, why I train leaderships.

Pedro 6:14

Interesting. I love that. Now, I love to dive in a little bit in the shift. That's what I call. It's like, you know, when you're you're testing winners, you're like helping people, doing the coaching stuff, and you're like, you know what? I guess this is a real business, you know. I'm not sure if it's the first invoice, but when you you you get that hat of coach, you know, you're like, oh, identity driven, oh, I am a coach, you know. So what was that like for you? You know, that shift.

Michael Peiniger 6:45

I'm trying to think of a defining moment, but for me, it was probably probably two things. One being told by a client that I was their coach, and then having that moment. I guess I don't see myself as trainer or facilitator anymore. Um and that that label was quite uh limiting as opposed to I work in the space of working with leaders and managers on their leadership and how they lead their team, and whatever medium has the most impact for that person. So uh I think it was that, and perhaps realizing that training and teaching is an aspect of growth as opposed to the only part of growth, recognizing that there were different ways to ask a question, different ways to engage with a client, different ways to have them develop rather than tell or guide. Whether that's inquiring, whether that's arguing, whether that's just showing different alternatives and perspectives. I'd like to say it also came at around about the time that my children were asking loads and loads of questions. But I think that may have been just a happy coincidence at the time.

Pedro 8:08

Okay. Now, usually what I do is ask if you niche down and how did you find your own tribe, right? But you kind of did that already. But I want to understand the mindset behind it. And the reason I ask is because in the early days of coaching, we see a lot of people trying to, you know, coaches trying to help the entire world, but sometimes that's not as effective. Eventually they niche down or not. Really depends on each of their own, right? What they want to do. So, how that played out for you? What like, did you have like a lot of testing where, like, oh, I need to niche this, what this is not really working out? How did that play out for you? Can you walk me through it?

Michael Peiniger 8:45

I think I, yeah, of course. I think I had the advantage of working with a large number of clients in the training realm first. So I was working within my own business that to start with had a limited number of clients. I was subcontracting with some of the larger universities here in Melbourne and in Australia. And they put me in front of a really wide group of clients. So from the larger corporate businesses, which in Australia, like the Qantas and the Virgin, and some of the banks and insurance companies, through to some smaller groups as well. So I I got a breadth of the types of people I could work with, but I found the ones that I was most effective with, which I was fortunate enough that that was also the people that I really enjoyed working with, was those people that were either running their own businesses or they were small family-owned businesses or small to medium-sized companies where they were truly invested. I know pre-podcast, we we were talking about the idea of commitment, Pedro. I found when it came to wanting to people wanting to develop themselves or become better leaders, which is where I've sort of moved into. And certainly those leaders that have teams, I found the most committed were the ones that if they made a good decision or a bad decision, they were going to feel it. They were either going to lose someone in their team. It was probably going to have an impact on their own business, their family business, their small business. So they could be quite cautious initially, but really passionate. Um, they were the type that after a coaching session would follow up before the next session. They would they'd do the work because putting the money or the time aside to do the work was an effort. They there was something else they were letting go of, whether it was sales or income generating or production generating. They were taking the time to do this thing that they didn't know as much about. And so it was that and also feeling valued. It's a wonderful thing when you're working with a group and they or an individual and they truly value and appreciate both the content and all your effort as well. So that kind of pushed me in the direction of who and where. So small businesses, family businesses. I think over time we've we've worked out it while I've worked with individuals individuals, it's early, and still work with individuals in larger businesses. From a company or team perspective, it's normally 150 employees. It's normally working in Australia because that's where we've targeted our marketing. And it's normally a leader who has either stepped into the role or is now managing people, maybe not for the first time, but wants to be to be better at it and feel more confident at it.

Pedro 11:40

I love how everything with you sounds natural. You're you're moving out from the the not necessarily a pilot, but that career, right, with the Air Force, Australia Air Force, and you're like, you're doing leadership already. And then you're like, oh, the next natural thing is like, oh, coaching, that's an interesting way to do things. Now, not just about training, right? And you're like, oh, I'm already inserting this space. I already talked with me, people already like it's it sounds like supernatural, right? It's not like you wake up a day and you're like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna be a coach, right? It's like so organic.

Michael Peiniger 12:17

I know it sounds like that, and having it replayed back to me from you, it seems like that. At the time it felt like an enormous leap. And even though even though at that point I was felt incredibly comfortable working in front of a group. So while many have said my peers have moved down the path of uh you know selling from the stage or public speaking, I did or keynote speaking. I didn't really enjoy or want to spend as much time there. That ability, though, to be in front of the group, I felt very, very comfortable. Training, training a group of 20, training a group of 30. It almost got to the point of being too easy. And the one-on-one, which someone might say, hey, that was more comfortable and build up. Initially, the idea of working one-on-one with someone terrified me. That everything that they're looking for is from you. I can't divert to anybody else. I can't start a discussion, I can't have a group thing, I can't use other people in a group to inform our discussion. It's it's you and it's me. That that felt like a big leap at the time.

Pedro 13:28

Well, but it is like that, right? There's also that imposter syndrome, and I felt that. And I had a guest a while ago, and he he actually had some past with substance abuse. And today what he does is help youth get out of it. Not necessarily a substance abuse, but when they're they're like needing a purpose. And I bet he felt the same, right? He was like, I who am I to help someone, but that's the exact thing. He he was he he lived that experience, you know? You were it so it's so powerful, and it's hard for us to pinpoint sometimes our own strengths, you know, it's more like easier to pinpoint weaknesses and and and second guess ourselves. When you when I told told you this, it's like for your perspective, I completely get it. I also did do that to myself, right? I'm like, who am I to do X, Y, and Z? Who am I to do a one-on-one? I never did that, but at the same time, I think from an outside perspective, like I like looking at your story, it sounds so so right. You know, it sounds so natural, but it's wild when I put it that way because I understand where you're coming from, right? You're feeling about that at the time.

Michael Peiniger 14:40

It certainly feels like I'm even still, and and I've been doing this for a number of years now, it still feels as much fun and as much challenge as it did early on. Um, the I think the last couple of weeks or months on the world stage certainly changed a few things. Here in Australia, lots of discussions around not traveling, more working from home, less fuel, lots of pressure on businesses. And while there've been different cycles of that, there's a need to change how we do things. And the challenge, but also the excitement, and not trying to play down what's happening in the the bigger world, but from a business perspective, right? How do I adapt to that? When people don't want to meet one-on-one, they don't want to spend large volumes of time, they're stressing in their own world around what they can do or how they can do it. The the opportunity to bring a sense of calm or control for somebody else, and then also sometimes also then bring that back to you by putting it to them is a wonderful opportunity and a wonderful type of role to be able to do.

Pedro 15:51

Yeah, you know, and I want to shift gears for a second. Uh, I want to talk a little bit the about the business side now, marketing specifically. So those small businesses, business owners, or the individuals you mentioned that own larger businesses, right? And you you you serve them on an individual level. So, how do those people usually find you in the first place?

Michael Peiniger 16:14

I keep uh asking and checking that often myself. How did you find us? I think having one, having an effective website that is really clear on what it is that we're doing. We about 10 years ago went through a business name change. So I loved the concept of our business called chameleons. So a chameleon changing with its environment and its mood and our marketing sat with that. But people struggled to find us. The chameleon and leadership development doesn't necessarily gel and fit. And we'd always been called chameleons developing leaders. So dropping the front part made some of the marketing and imagery and colours a little bit different, but the the name itself just really honing in on what is it we do? We develop leaders. So part of that, and then being very clear on what we would talk about, what we would share, what have either on LinkedIn or on the website or Insta from images discussions very much around developing leaders. So that's one, because we do have a lot of clients, potential clients that find us through our website now. The second is referrals, and that's probably I think I led with the website because I only yesterday again doing a bunch of review and changes and adaption to that. So it's still front of mind. But what has been probably the key one for myself, and I'm sure many coaches has been referrals. I think I was a little blessed to do so much coaching and training. So people that had done programs with me, either in my own business or subcontracting, had moved out to others. So I was a very early adopter of LinkedIn, seeking to connect with people in that sense, see where they're going, you know, stay in contact. As part of my military career, I was terrible, terrible in staying contact with people. You'd move a base or move a location, and it was like you're new port, new purpose, new place. LinkedIn, I found gave a sense of being able to stay in touch with people that I'd never been really good at before. So there's many people with many more connections now, but for quite a while I had a very large connection base compared to peers and spent a lot of time seeking to stay in touch and check in with people and seeking to build. I'm not gonna say community, because I think community is a little more personal, but at least trying to stay in touch with a large number of people. Third from marketing is I learned this the hard way. I wanted to um I wanted to meet potential clients where I liked meeting or with things that I liked doing. And I I wish I could remember the the speaker that that said this that said, you need to go to the places where your clients actually go and exist and spend time. And I think it was actually through through LinkedIn. I I remember uh when you could take all of the people that I was connected with, and I went through my list of, I don't know, 3,000 odd people, and then I looked almost person by person and said, How many of these people that I'm connected with are potential clients or are in that new spot? And I think of the 3,000, well, I knew plenty of facilitators and trainers and ex-military people, I think I could say less than a hundred were people that were in the kind of target market that I mentioned. And so it was a real conscious focus to who are these people, what is their role, where are they located, and go out and connect with them. So LinkedIn, website, referral would be the three areas of marketing that have served us well for a period of time. And the one that we're really playing with right now is getting a little bit more micro-focused and going back to an old school concept of lumpy mail, Pedro. Realizing in the coaching world, I don't need 300 clients. I can have 10 or 15 and still exist very, very happily. So reach or doing using LinkedIn for a whole bunch of search and then seeking to connect with when I say lumpy mail, sending them something that they can touch and they can feel. And at the moment it's one of those little styrofoam flat-packed aircraft that I don't know whether you had these things as kids, but I know I did. You had to pop them out of the styrofoam and attach the little propeller on the front and they flew. Sending something like that with the idea of you know, where are they on their journey and what turbulence are they finding in their business as a way of trying to have a small point of difference in our marketing and connect at a level of I'm a business owner and so are you. This can be hard sometimes.

Pedro 21:00

That is so interesting. That idea, I love that idea. You know, it stands out definitely. You just have to be very intentional to deliver to the right people because of of course there's a cost involved. Now, let's talk business for a second, right? And the structure of your business specifically. Let's picture I am your ICP, right? And I eventually was referred to your business or I visited your website. I'm like, you know what? Michael seems like a cool guy, and I want to work with him and his business, you know. So eventually got into a call. I ended up becoming a client, you know. You closed me. I was like, yep, let's do it. And uh so what I want to know is like walk me through it, like the experience from my point of view, a client that's just been on boarded. How did you structure your coaching business, you know?

Michael Peiniger 21:49

We seek to slow down before we speed up, I think, Pedro. In that one of the things we mentioned was that psychometric, the velocity checkpoint. And that was that was an Enormous shift, game changer, changing mental space for us as a business and in coaching. We use it for two things. One, absolutely in the marketing selling process. So I won't have, I won't work with one-on-one with the client until they've done the checkpoint. It takes about 25 minutes for them to do online. And if they are unwilling or don't want to do that, it's a little bit like a barrier to entry. If they won't take 20 minutes in themselves to answer some questions about where they're at, I know they're probably not going to head down the coaching process anyway. The debrief takes just short of an hour where we go through the leadership strengths where they are currently, their potential development areas. So it's a real learning experience for them and for us. So for them, they can kind of see the types of areas that they may need to work on. They probably already knew part of it anyway, but it's a real confirmation or seeing it in numbers or seeing it right there in front of them. It's an assistance for us so that we're not poking around with a flashlight in the dark trying to work out what this client needs to work on or what are they saying and what are they hiding? But at the same time, it's the chance for the client to assess me and assess us. And so after the checkpoint, I don't ask whether they want to coach or not at that point. I literally ask them two questions. And that is one, is coaching something you can see yourself doing after what we've just done? Yes or no. If not, there might be some other avenues they want to pursue, whether that's training or whether that's you know mentoring their own business. Fantastic. Because coaching's a commitment. And the second thing I ask is if it is coaching, is it coaching you'd like to do with me? And keeping those two distinct. I know coaching, it's a trust-based thing. If the person's not feeling it, or it's happened once or twice, but I'm not feeling it. I don't think I can work with this person or what they're dealing with. Then hey, I know a bunch of coaches that, well, certainly many coaches that I think this person's better for you, or I think that person might tap in. I can direct in that way. So I'm wanting them to say, yes, I want to do coaching to, I'd like to do coaching with you. And then from that checkpoint, I can give a bit of an outline on this is what I think the process will look like from a either a training, coaching, discussion perspective, and then talk about who's going to be in the driver's seat. I think of you mentioned the idea of being a wingman before. I think of it as essentially like the co-pilot. When the person's stressed, they're worried, they're not sure, I'll jump into the pilot's seat and say, hey, I think this is the path we need to go today. At other times, the person strapped in and said, This is what we're working on and where we're going. Um, that kind of gives that start point, along with I want the person following on from the checkpoint and/or with a discussion with their manager or with other people that are important to them. What do I want from this coaching process? To get them to think about it beforehand, not just, yeah, I want coaching. It's I think that's in part from training, learning that I just want to be a better leader. Okay, well, leadership is so enormously wide. What where are the areas you're seeing? Or from the checkpoint, where do you want to grow and build? Um, having a little bit of a plan that we can work to, and they also get the opportunity to hold me to account to. That that accountability responsibility process, I think, is really important at the start. Um, we're not just doing it for the sake of doing it. Uh and their specific issues might be a little broader. So between us, we come up with a little bit of a plan, not necessarily the flight path. That can change and weave depending on what happens in the workplace or with their team. But this is where we want to go in a in a full month period. We have that joint accountability on the process then.

Pedro 25:59

So interesting you mentioned, you know, uh, when someone tells you, oh, it's about I want to be a better leader, right? That's a surface level answer. And I would compare that to sometimes I'm talking with coaches and they're like, Oh, I need more clients. Yes. But that's also such a surface level answer. Is it Legion? You know, is it the positioning? Um, do you have a pre-qualification process? Do you have a conversion rate that is actually doable? How's your pricing? You know, so there are several layers to understand where to get to client acquisition. So that is just like you mentioned, it's so broad, right? It's so so big. It's such a big task, or not enough a good question, I would say, or answer. It's more like what specifically has to change and where to start moving forward. And then we can diagnose and try to understand. Now, that being said, okay, I'm curious about where taking all this, you know, Michael. Looking ahead, where do you see the business going? Are you thinking about scaling, hiring, or is there a next step you're excited about?

Michael Peiniger 27:07

There's always a next step I'm excited about. Or scared about. I know that sometimes that could be an edge between the two. I think at the moment it's the bit I've said I'd say I'm excited and scared about is with both the checkpoint and our workshops and the coaching, having more opportunity to have those things flow together. Because it found from a client perspective, they just want to get better or more confident. They don't necessarily have this, it must be this or it must be that. That's kind of the artificial thing that we create in our world. You're doing coaching. Oh, really? I just wanted to get better. So being able to work out a a number of blends instead of just discrete training, workshop, coaching, having that flow. But I think also the challenge right now that scares and excites me is finding a blend that suits people with the short amounts of time or the short time spans that they have. I'm seeking more on the short amount of time, and I'm part of what uh often have to work with is with leaders is their short attention spans. I think sometimes with leaders, you get this unique thing where they're trying to juggle 15 balls at the same time, and they just see that's their job. Um, and spending more time juggling certain balls than others, and there's always an extra ball for them to juggle. So I find the client I end up starting with is normally stressed, they're overworked, they're tired, emotional, roller coastered day by day. Some of that is some of what you need to do is flatten that out. But the challenge I think now is external forces weighing heavily on leaders and weighing heavily on businesses, and they don't know what it's going to look like right now. Uh so instead of people shutting up shop, and that was certainly something I learned in the training world is when things get a little difficult, it's very easy to say, right, no training, no expense, and to coach train some of the clients that now's the best time to be doing some of this. It's live. People need guidance, help, an assuring hand, someone to say, you've got this or you're heading in the right direction is more important when things are turbulent than when things are calm. So I think that's part of the challenge, both for myself and in my business, educating and working with people that either know or are looking for that. And then when you've got them like we are now and one-on-one, to be able to, okay, let's let's break this down. And uh reminded by my wife the other day of that adage of you know, how do you eat an elephant? Oh, it's just one bite at a time. And I think that adage works really well, both in leadership and coaching at times.

Pedro 30:00

I think you brought a great reminder, right? About the frameworks and the different programs and how the clients, they usually they don't want to know about the flight plan, right? It's about the destination. It's like my wife is in front of a mechanic, she knows nothing about the cars, and he starts mumbling and talking about the technical and blah blah blah. And she's like, I just just give me the you know, the the car, is it working or not? People more often than not, they don't actually know, and secondly, they don't care, so they trust you to make the right decision for them for them based on the programs you have, right? So, yeah, definitely. I think this would make more sense pairing on what you just told me. So, yeah, of course there is an importance to it, but I think from the client's perspective, and I've seen a lot of coaches doing that, it's like they waste too much time on the demos, like trying to explain what will happen and the frame more. And in reality, we should be listening more, actively listening, and trying to understand what they really, really want and need, right? Now, that's very interesting, but of course, whenever we're aiming towards the next chapter, Michael, there's always something we're refining in the present, right? So, what are you currently trying to improve or tighten up in your business right now?

Michael Peiniger 31:19

Yeah, um, improve would be taking small bites and snapshots of particular skills that people are really struggling with and giving multiple ways in which we can hit, attack, adjust, play with that. One one that wrestling with at the moment is when it comes to people's time and task management, coaching, coaching leaders, and I think it's probably for many, but you know, I we focus very much on people leading others. The way in which they manage their time and their tasks to get stuff done is often incredibly haphazard. The routines are terrible, the structures bad, it can be on a whim or firefighting what's the the biggest thing at the time, whether that's urgency or what the boss wants. And getting people to realize they have some space that they control in that. Not to be able to fully rigidly count for every single minute of the day, but somewhere between the chaos and a full plan, they can have some measure of control. Many people understand that idea and concept, but actually devoting time to thinking about where it is now or what structures they can employ or what routines are working, or more importantly, the routines that aren't working that they're just defiantly sticking to. It's one of the most important aspects to, I think, the coaching process and having clients recognize its importance and its effort, which sometimes feels like going back two or three steps, but actually giving them, and I'm gonna steal a Brene Brown concept here, giving them some solid ground from which they can then work and develop forward. Yeah, there's no point having the fastest plane and the best wings and the most wonderful propeller if you can't actually land. And so that I'm finding really interesting, challenging, because I can have a number of steps and concepts and ideas, but if potential client doesn't see its importance, they won't buy it, even though it is really important and it makes a really large difference. So that's the whether that's the content and finding the right uh hook for someone to go, oh, that's why, whether it's the right method, or whether it's the right methodology or timing now, that's I'm finding that that's a challenge right now. And I think getting it right, it's one aspect of a leader's role, but I find just getting that piece working for someone has such an impact on how they then lead their team or where they see their future. Getting bogged down or stuck in their task just has people lose their vision across their team or forward and just have them so microscopic on the current moment. The chance to get someone to raise their head and see above their own tasks. That's that's both the challenge and the frustration and the difficulty all rolled into one right now, Pedro.

Pedro 34:20

That's a great reminder, especially with the calendar being chaotic, you know. The I think at the end of the day we're talking about intention. Where do you want to see value and where do you want to spend time? Some sometimes people tell themselves stories that are not really aligned with the truth. Like, I think my family, my faith, and then in the third place, my work, and they spend like what 80% of the time working. So, really, is it family first? You know, so having that conversation sometimes is like what really will show where that people that that person is actually present, you know. But yeah, definitely a challenge. I agree with that. Now, Michael, if someone listening and wants to connect with you or follow your work, you know, where can people find you and connect with you?

Michael Peiniger 35:09

Thank you. They can find us at developingleaders.com.au. They can find me, Michael Piniger, on LinkedIn. And they probably the two easiest places, or if uh wanted to reach out and just go old school email, it's uh Michael at developingleaders.com.au.

Pedro 35:31

You know, there were a few things we talked today that I feel the need to share, you know, and uh highlight, I would say. Like, first of all, the vulnerability aspect, right? When you mention the one-on-one, right? Let's figure it out. The leap of faith you did by le labeling yourself as a coach. When we were talking about marketing, you're like, Yeah, how did you find us? You know, that that it places you in the human level, and I think that is so powerful for a coach because that I will always say this at the end of the day, that you're creating a connection, right? If you're having a point of view of you know preaching mode, it's gonna be hard to connect with you on a human level and open myself to you as a coachy, for example. So I think that's a very key asset. Another reminder is like when you changed the name from chameleons, right? Chameleons leadership to developing leaders, that shows me one thing that I think it's so powerful. It's like that was your baby, right? You were using that name for several years. There is some ego involved there. It's not just about the name. So you have to what? Okay, what do I want to do? I want to impact more people through my business. So I need to stand aside my ego, accept the fact that that name worked for a while, but right now it's kind of creating confusion in what it is more, what's most important for me to impact people, right? It's not about being a pet project. Sometimes it is for certain people, but for you, it sounds like it's not. It's about, you know, having having the right name so you can, you know, connect with more people so they get the message, even if that's not the first name you you had in mind. Not a problem. That's the strategy now. You know, um, another reminder is like you're looking at the raw data, right? When we were talking about followers and uh the LinkedIn connections, you're like, okay, but how many of those are my ICP, are my ideal client profile? Like a hundred out of three thousand. So I feel like a lot of coaches sometimes they see the followers, they see the numbers, but in reality, what really matters is like conversion. It doesn't matter anything else. It's like ICP conversion, funnel. You have to have that mindset of a funnel, you know. So, in order to convert people and actually to help them, so it's part of a business. If it's not, it's a hobby. And talking about funnel, last but not least, reminder is the assessment you create. For those who didn't get it, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna say it out loud. That what Michael did was creating friction, top funnel, so he doesn't waste time with people that are not actually committed, Michael. Going back to the first talk we're having, right? Before the podcast, it's about commitment. If they don't want to fill in a forum to work with you, are they really worth talking to? Are they are they gonna be good clients? And well, 21 years in the game, Michael, tells me you kind of tested that, right? So it shows. Now, this is my long-winded way of saying, Michael. I appreciate what you do. I appreciate you being here and sharing so openly today, okay? It was great having you on.

Michael Peiniger 38:44

Well, Pedro, it's an absolute pleasure to uh chat with you and and thank you for the the questions and the opportunity to think back and think uh what's working. And I'm so glad it feels like it's just natural looking back. I hope in another five to ten years looking back on this period, it also feels natural instead of the chaos that at times it can feel as we we work in this space. So thank you for the opportunity.

Davis Nguyen 39:11

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