Delivering Value Across Borders: Julie Sivanthaphanith Coaching Philosophy

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets, host Kevin sits down with Julie Sivanthaphanith, a cross-cultural leadership coach and founder of Keystoners, based in Vietnam. Julie shares how she helps expats, global Vietnamese, and multinational teams adapt their leadership styles to Vietnam’s Confucian-rooted culture.

She reveals the biggest challenges Western leaders face when stepping into Asian business environments—especially the shift from “deliver to earn trust” to “build trust to deliver.” Julie also opens up about using LinkedIn as her only marketing channel, navigating the unpredictability of solopreneurship, and why she values peace of mind over aggressive growth.


Connect with

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-sivanthaphanith/
Website: https://www.keystoners.co/

Transcript

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Julie Sivanthaphanith 0:00

That's my direction, right? Because so on 101, depending on position, so of course if you coach and train and or do consulting for someone that is a CEO, doesn't have the same impact that if it's a middle manager that has just arrived to Vietnam, right? The people that uh they're gonna impact on in the companies so abroad. So I do always value-based, right? On top of that, um I must say that I have this.

Davis Nguyen 0:30

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wynne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to $100,000 years, $100,000 months, and even $100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over $100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, you'll discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Kevin 1:01

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Kevin, and today we are joined by Julie Savon. She's been a coach for two years. She's the founder of Keystoners and a Global Leadership Coach. Welcome to the show, Julie.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 1:15

Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm really happy to be here.

Kevin 1:18

I'm really excited. So, first question, first thing that came to mind, I asked you pre-podcast, but what exactly is a global leadership coach? Like, how much?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 1:26

Yeah, it's um actually I'm specialized in cross-cultural leadership coaching. So uh I'm based off in Vietnam. I'm French, I lived in China, so I've been in Vietnam for four years. So I help leaders who come to Vietnam or who want to work with Vietnam to adapt their leadership here because culture changes a lot of stuff in terms of messages. And most of my clients have difficulties actually to do this. I would like to be a vitamin, but most of the time I'm a painkiller. So they've been here for quite a while, and then they cannot have results. They don't have traction, so then they cannot perform. And they um I support them to adapt their leadership here in Vietnam.

Kevin 2:09

Wait, so who are your clients? Are they foreign people coming into Vietnam? Are they local? Like, yeah, tell me about your ideal client profile.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 2:17

So actually, I have different profiles. I have the individual leader who's facing some issues here, reaching out to me to help them. Then I have global Vietnamese, what I call global Vietnamese, so Vietnamese that are overseas and they're coming back to Vietnam and they have what we call a reverse cultural shock. So then they have to readapt. But you have also those global Vietnamese, those Vietnamese here who want to go abroad, so in the US, in Australia, and they need to adapt. And then I have corporates, right? And it's all also the same dynamic. So you know that Vietnam now is growing like hell, and you have a lot of uh international companies here, but headquartered most of the time in the US or in Europe, and they have to translate their global culture to Vietnam. So let's say you have a company and in their values, they have proactive, being proactive. Being proactive in the US, for example, you don't perform being proactive the same way in the US and in Vietnam. So how do you translate this? What is really important for them is really operational ROI, right? Because if you cannot align among multicultural teams, then you have your projects that are delayed, right? And then you have rework, then you have engagement retention issues, and then you ultimately you're not performing at the speed that you would like. And then the last segment um is really a tiny one, but I really like it. Is uh in Vietnam you have more and more IT hubs, right? Accelerators for startups. AI is becoming something really big that the government is pushing, and you have co-founders' teams that are really multicultural, either because they're looking for funds elsewhere or because maybe a co-founder is in India, one in Vietnam, one in Singapore, and they have to work together. So this is a tiny part, but I really like this segment as well.

Kevin 4:12

One of the things you highlighted a few like nuances of leadership in Asia versus like the US. What are the top three challenges that come to mind, I guess?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 4:30

Actually, the the top challenge actually is really huge. So maybe one is enough, is what I call the autopilot leadership. Most of us Westerners is a kind of shortcut, but for the forecast, I think it lets use this. Of course, for example, um German leader doesn't have the same leadership as a French or an American one. But just to simplify here, I'm gonna call that Western leadership. So the Western leadership is uh I come and I deliver. At the beginning, small wins, right? And then bigger wins. And because I'm delivering, then I'm building trust, right, with my partners' stakeholders. In a lot of Confucian cultures, so when I'm saying Confucian Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, it's the other way around. You have to build trust. And once you build trust, then you can deliver. And that's the biggest issue actually, because how do you build trust actually in those cultures is really by relationship, right? So it means that you can try to deliver those quick wins with your team, but at some point, if you don't build that relationship with them, I'm saying team, but bigger team, right? So your direct team, your peers, your partners, your clients, then you cannot have this trust and you won't have the traction to create performance. And then ultimately maybe your next step in your career, right? And that's really a big challenge for a lot of people here. Because when you start, for example, in the Western world, when you're gonna introduce yourself, you're gonna say, for example, me, I'm Julie, I'm a global leadership coach. I have 20 years of experience in corporates, and it's been two years and putting this experience for my clients, really professional, really about about records. But in in Vietnam, for example, you have to come and say, Okay, I'm Julie, I'm married, I'm 43 years old, I like cat surfing, and I have my parents with me here in Vietnam. So you see, it's really not the same introduction, but it's for both a professional environment. So it's a big switch because then how you build relationships in the workplace is really different before having distraction.

Kevin 6:38

How does that sound? No, I love it. It's very interesting. And so, like, okay, so now we kind of understand some of the nuances of international teams and all that, and the difference between the Western or Russian Confucian cultures. Let's talk about the marketing. How do people find out about you? What kind of marketing are you kind of doing to kind of promote your services?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 6:59

So, can you imagine that? So it's been four years that I'm in Vietnam, and it's been two years I'm a coach. And of course, the network I had before was really different from the one here. And as I just mentioned to you, we need to build trust and relationships. So it was kind of real difficult because I started from scratch, right? So my only channel of communication today is LinkedIn. I chose this platform because uh yeah, so it's international, so really linked to what I'm doing, right? Um, and then uh yeah, started to really post on this, really showing what I'm doing and also showing who I am, because I think that the main issue to attract clients is really to build that trust, right? So the trust in your skills, the trust that they want to work with you. Uh so and so I started to post a year ago now. Yeah, you say the 10th of October was a year ago. And this is our how I communicate. So initially, uh initially, Kevin, there was no one reading. And then consistency and uh and there were a lot of lows and highs, right? Now I can attract the people that are interested in what I'm doing.

Kevin 8:05

As you reflect on your two-year journey, um, what kind of challenges have you noticed either right now or previously when it comes to finding clients?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 8:13

So the biggest challenge for me was really that LinkedIn, right? Because I didn't tell you, but I was head of marketing for a big FMCG, uh worldwide uh FMCG company, right? And so I I know my stuff on marketing, right? But it was really high-level strategy. And then suddenly I have to implement something. So I needed to learn how to write, right? How to attract the strategies of LinkedIn, what is the algorithm doing, then knowing really, really well my clients who I was targeting, having clarity on their needs and what I can offer to them. I would say the two uh main things. But uh I think that what it was really great is that the more you talk to people that are interested in what you're doing, and you take really at the beginning, it was not easy for me to go to LinkedIn, very never post anything, never DMs. But the more you open or you're curious and you talk to those guys, the more you know them and the more you grow with them. So really at the beginning, forcing myself to do it. And now honestly, Kevin, I I really enjoy going to LinkedIn. I have really interesting conversations with people. And then again, the more you talk to them, the more you know what they want and the more you can be useful. When I create my content, I'm targeting only expat people and global Vietnamese, right? So I I go only on this, and then the others are coming and seeing an opportunity for me to help them, right? Um when I say individuals and then B2B, actually, a B2B, they feel the actual I'm not talking to HR people or to culture people or director, but they feel that what I'm sharing with them is exactly what is missing in their teams, right? So I'm talking only to one ICP, and then yeah, people see that there are some resonance, and then they they can talk to me.

Kevin 10:05

What does a coaching engagement look like for you? Is it mostly like one-on-one coaching, team like coaching and stuff like that? We'd love to kind of hear what a coaching looks like.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 10:15

So I have uh different hats. Uh you're right, Kevin. So the first hat is really consultant or facilitator, because I need to give that knowledge about what is culture here in Vietnam, right? So here there is no kind of interaction, it's me giving them the keys, uh, how it works, etc. And then uh so I always start with two days of workshops, depending on how big is the team, whether it's an individual. And then I follow up with at least three months of coaching, right? Because once you have the keys and during the workshop you define what is the best way for the leader to bridge with Vietnamese culture, then they have to implement. And as I told you, like you go against your autopilot mode. So implementing is not easy. So I give you an example, uh, really a cultural, not a leadership. So in China, also it's the case, you don't queue most of the time. So I explained to them why. So then they kind of anchored this, and then there is a kind of um uh I would say um change of behavior curve. At the beginning, you're getting you deny, at some point you accept.

Kevin 11:22

Sorry, just to interrupt for a second, when you said cue, what's it exactly mean? Like lining up, like in terms of cultural nuance or okay cool.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 11:29

Exactly. Queuing is really cultural, queuing. Yeah, I know. So you'd say in Finland, for example, they they queue like one or two meters uh apart, right? But here there is no cue. So of course I tell them, for example, in Vietnam, it's because it's linked to Taoism, it's really linked to the flow. So you just follow the flow. So then they get the principle. But then the first time you go out and you see this, there is no cue. As an autopilot and me as a friend, you're like, what is happening? How do we do this? Right? So your autopilot is coming. So then you have to kind of integrate the culture and accept it, and then you're gonna change your behavior. During the training, we would talk about this, how to train, what is the best way to without erasing yourself. And then next time maybe they're gonna understand. The second time, maybe they're gonna implement, but it takes time to change your programming. So that's why I follow up with coaching.

Kevin 12:24

Kind of reminds me of the first time crossing the road in like Southeast Asia and stuff in Vietnam. It's like it's all about flow and you just keep on going and people, it's like fishes, they swim around you and stuff like that. So interesting analogy.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 12:37

Totally.

Kevin 12:38

One of the things that I'm very curious about because oftentimes the perception of leadership, I I think the way that people look at it isn't necessarily like a I don't want to call it a hard skill. Like it seems less tangible than things like marketing or sales, because there's direct KPIs like associated with it. And what I've noticed uh with some leadership coaches, a lot of times they struggle with things like pricing uh and pricing strategy. So I would love your take on this. Obviously, you don't have to give any hard numbers about what you charge or anything like that. As you think about structuring your coaching engagements, how do you think about it? Are they like value-based, retainers, project? There's so many different ways to price. And what have you kind of gravitated to over the years?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 13:21

So for me, uh price on value, right? That's my direction, right? Because so on 101, depending on position, so of course, if you coach and train and or do consulting for someone that is a CEO, doesn't have the same impact that if it's a middle manager that has just arrived to Vietnam, right? The people that uh they're gonna impact on in the company is so abroad. So I do always value-based, right? On top of that, um, I I must say that I have this kind of competitive advantage, King. Uh in Vietnam, so the market of coaching is not that mature first. And then on cross-cultural leadership, not a lot of people. I would say only me. You have intercultural trainer, but not adding this layer of leadership, right? So being so niche actually really helped me also to be to be more premium and I have the chance to choose my my so far. So that's why I do value-based, and I'm really open on this.

Kevin 14:23

When you talk when you think about value-based, right? Something I think about in different industries, people's definition of value-based can like differ, right? And so usually, like, if you're basing it on value, what are some of those things that people really care about? Like those outcomes or KPIs that people like really care about in the global leadership space.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 14:43

Yeah, and that's into your previous question because it's kind of intangible, right? But one thing that also is really good about being a painkiller, you see, and not a vitamin, is that people are really coming because they need something. Because honestly, awareness on cross-cultural leadership is not really high. Right? People always think that it's about food culture, it's about food and etc. But actually, you have what I call deep culture versus surface culture. So I have this advantage, but they're coming and they're saying, okay, man, I have a problem, Julie, can you help me? And then I roll out, I know exactly what is happening. So I tell them, okay, you're here because this is happening, this is happening, and this is happening. If you work with me, this is what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen. And already you have like you showcase a little bit what you know, and they're like, man, this is me. So she knows her stuff. So already they have this problem and value-based is easier. Uh and when you tell them, oh, if you don't do this, your operational ROI is gonna be like this. You're leaking talents. Your next step, so the promotion you're targeting after this assignment, because most of them are expats, so they're here for for two or three years, right? Uh you're not gonna have the position you're targeting. You're gonna go back home, and 25% of experts are gonna leave the company within one year. You see, I come up with numbers of 40% of expert assignments are failures, right? So then it's easier for me to fix this. So I know what is happening and I can land this on operational ROI and the next career advancement plan.

Kevin 16:19

Yeah, you sold the question for me because I was gonna ask, like, okay, what if they pass on global leadership? What are the implications of that, or what are the consequences of that? And you kind of answer that just now. I do want to shift gears here for a second. Yes. So, you know, we see the importance of this, right? And why people need to do something like this. I'm more curious about your future goals. And so, where do you kind of want this coaching business to take in the next few years? Do you have desires to scale, secret dreams, big ambition? Kind of curious on that.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 16:50

So Kevin, honestly, I I'm really sure. Um why uh I'm gonna tell you why. So I was partnering this big company, top five FMCG in the world. And I come from a really humble background, and I had this kind of pressure from family to study and to have this career and etc. And actually what happened two years ago is that I discovered that actually I was following the definition of success of others. So I wanted to define mine, and this is how I had real coaching. I had my executive coach defining with me or helping to define what is my definition of success. And I'm so happy today to be by myself, honestly. Being an entrepreneur, doing things rather than being that person doing strategy with big teams and maybe a title and all those stuff, that today I I'm really in the present, I think. Before I was more planning and all of stuff. But I would say I'm considering to scale, but I'm enjoying so much the size that I have today, right? Uh choosing my clients, choosing where I want to travel, choosing being free, right? Not having a big team, not having a boss, and doing things really concrete that I'm not really sure. And maybe you maybe tomorrow I'm gonna change my mind, and that's totally fine. But I like this freedom. So yeah, I'm not sure on this. I'm not sure whether it's the the answer you wanted to hear. But uh yeah, really enjoying where I am and not thinking too much about the future, being really present and having this freedom. Yeah.

Kevin 18:25

When you s one of the interesting things you said was like, I'm considering to scale, right? And so I think one of the things like I think about when starting a business, right? Is like now we get to define terms based off our definitions versus other people's terms of like definition. And so I guess one of the questions I have for you is like, how would scaling look like for you, your your definition of scale? I think a lot of times we think, oh yeah, increasing revenue, growing the team, like there's a lot of aggressiveness to it. Like you kind of really enjoy the the the day stuff as well. So if you had to scale, what does your definition of scaling look like?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 19:06

So what I'm considering, but it's really a small step, is because what I'm missing, uh Kevin, is a little bit of more interaction, having a team, right? Before I had big teams and you see, and I really enjoyed being by myself and doing my research and and my clients. But sometimes I'm like, man, uh I would like to have few people around me to discuss with, to exchange. And so that would be the next step, right? So it's more maybe not hard KPS, as you mentioned, but uh bringing people on board and seeing what we can do all together, having constructive discussion, less about yeah, hard KPS, but more this connection, this bonding, this mission we're going towards together, right? Like this is more the next step, I think, for me.

Kevin 19:51

I see. That's really interesting how you miss kind of like the team dynamics and all that. Uh, that's really interesting.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 19:58

Exactly. So I was uh head of marketing and I had like really young talents, you see, and then talent middle managers. And I'm missing having people with different yeah, background, um, different ideas that we could combine, actually. This is yeah, the thing that I'm missing.

Kevin 20:15

As you're reflecting on your current season of business and maybe life right now, because it is a huge transition from header marketing down to yourself and growing this coaching business. What are some challenges or bottlenecks you're kind of noticing in this season of business right now for you? Maybe some of the stuff that maybe a lot of people wouldn't be able to see from the outside looking in.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 20:36

I think it's uh this uncertainty of I would say revenue, or I would say not those ups and lows. Exactly, fluctuations. So you're like today I have three clients, new clients, and um I'm not sure I can manage those three clients, and they all want everything within two, three weeks, like you know, or yesterday, and then next month you're like, oh man, I don't have any coal. You see, it's not this. And because you're a one person business, sometimes it goes into a really deep dive. Uh for example, I told you LinkedIn is my only channel. So I'm like, man, maybe my posts are not good enough. Or maybe this one was not good enough. And you're like, oh man, I should have said like something differently. So you always like, because everything depends on you, you're always doubting. And there are external uh factors you cannot like really uh that's why coming to that team dynamics, I'd really like to have those discussions with someone. Something we did and we should learn from that, but uh am I learning the right thing? Or am I just doubting because no one is calling? So it's more um, yeah, those uh variations, but sometimes yeah. So sometimes you're like, man, there is too much, and sometimes you're like, man, what is happening? There is no one.

Kevin 21:52

Can imagine, right? Because you're kind of like in this um I don't want to call it isolation sh isolation chamber, but you're kind of in solitary confinement where a lot of these problems or things that are coming up, you're wrestling with yourself, and there's probably like a lot of uh you're missing that dynamic of like the back and forth.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 22:11

Exactly. So what I do, Kevin, is that I have coaches for everything. You see, I had a coach for LinkedIn, I had a coach for this and this. So then it's kind of building your own circle to have those discussions, and now I'm thinking about how I bring all that in, right?

Kevin 22:26

Well, Julie, I would love to play a game with you too. We're at that point of the podcast where we play games. I want to do it through the lens of business investments, if you're open to it. This is a storytelling game. And so one of the things that I notice from doing this podcast is that a lot of coaches they invest in things like coaching, training, marketing, king numbers, a lot of different things, right? Uh most business owners kind of do that. And so what I'm gonna do is if you're open to it, I'm gonna give you a prompt, of uh kind of like a phrase, and you tell me just the first thing that comes to mind. It's kind of like I'm a psychologist and I would just love to hear the first thing that comes to mind.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:04

Okay, okay.

Kevin 23:06

These are easy.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:07

Specific. Okay.

Kevin 23:08

Yeah. Try to be as specific as possible. Right? There's four of them. We'll start off with the first one. First business investment.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:15

You mean related to my coaching business or like in my life?

Kevin 23:18

It could be general in general.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:20

Uh the first investment I made was actually buying a house for my parents. The first I remember I started my career two months in the job, and then yeah, went for money to buy this house for my parents.

Kevin 23:34

Last business investment you made?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:35

My last business investment is really in coaching. My coach, right? Personal growth is really important, and then I didn't know what to do. So I needed an expert. So that was the last investment I did.

Kevin 23:47

Best business investment you made.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 23:49

Whether it was education, MBA, coaching, training, certification, all that's right. I think that's the best investment. Best ROI.

Kevin 23:58

I see. Okay. Last one. Worst business investment that you kind of wish you got your money back from.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 24:04

I paid um because you know, I'm a also a personal trainer and nutritionist. And I paid a training to um it was how to set a program on well-being and health in general to leverage this. And I paid like, and it's I won't say any name, right? But it was really famous influences and blah blah blah. But it doesn't worth the money at all. Really, really investment. Really, really the personal growth investment that I would regret my whole life.

Kevin 24:32

What was so bad about it?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 24:33

Well, so clear selling uh kind of methodology that I wanted kind of replicates because um I wanted to do holistic um actually holistic coaching for executives. So really starting from leadership and then so I was looking for a kind of framework to develop this. Well, the market uh is not mature enough here in Vietnam, but that's another point. But then the framework was sold as premium and blah blah blah, but actually was really, I think, branding for that influencer selling this, right? But underneath there was nothing, nothing.

Kevin 25:08

Yeah, as you reflect on these stories, right? I'm sure certain memories are coming up at different times in your life. I guess how has your decision-making process changed in what to invest in and what not to uh what not to invest in changed over the years, if at all.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 25:23

I think that um I'm in this season where I really prioritize my peace of mind. Before I would be like, I would be really ambitious and wanted to deliver, deliver, maybe forgetting myself in all those stuff. But now whether uh when I want to invest and like does that bring peace of mind? Even when we're talking about say scaling at my small level, I really want to have this same dynamics. But uh, does that really bring this peace of mind? Do I really want to live the life I want according to my definition of success? So, for example, uh going back to my first investment in real estate for my parents, if I had the mindset of today before, I wouldn't have done it. I think real estate is really like a mess, especially in the front. You see, so I would really prioritize this peace of mind.

Kevin 26:10

Let's move on to the next game. This segment is called Overrated, Underrated. You as a coach, as a business owner, I'm sure you've gotten a lot of great advice, a lot of bad advice, some solicited advice, and some unsolicited advice. So, two questions. What is the most overrated piece of business advice that you've gotten so far? And what's the most underrated piece of business advice that you've gotten?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 26:32

I think underrated is linked to what we said is how you build trust with anyone in your life, right? Whether it's a business partner, whether it's a friend, whether it's uh I don't know, the teacher of your kids, whoever. I think that this is so important, but nobody is talking about this. And I think really it's the new currency. Even in those uh that era of platforms, right? Like social media, who do you trust? How do you win that trust, right? It's so important. And uh I think that's the most underrated. Then overrated? There are so many caving you just open social media and then you have, yeah. And you're right when you're saying unsolicited, right? Because um, especially as a coach, you don't give advice like this, right? First you need to know whether people want to have advice, right? Like, and they everybody's smart enough to have their own opinions and so uh but I had to name one overrated of so many, I know. I think it's linked to uh Vietnam, right? And I I know that a lot of people think this way that power is authority, right? So they're saying to it's really a lot of about hierarchy, right, in the country and culture. Everybody's kind of placed on the map of network, right? And everybody wants to be at the top, actually. So they all want this kind of power, authority. And actually that's not how you win the hearts of people. Because even in the professional environment, we are really human and driven by emotions. And that that's uh something that is really overrated here, yeah, especially in in convention culture.

Kevin 28:08

Yeah, that's really interesting. I've kind of noticed that too, the hierarchy battle to the top, and people playing status games. What's been really interesting for me, because I'm a foreigner, right? And so I just get everything played around, but then there's a whole game on route. Like, again, it's a reason why we fall in love with like stories or characters, or even like for me, I'm a martial arts practitioner. We fall in love with the fighter who's like the underdog and all that sort of stuff, too, those stories. Yeah, there's actually a few uh you know, out here in Vietnam, because I trained at some MMA gyms out here, but there was like a story where this this MA fighter, he barely had like even five Vinese dong in his pocket, uh barely. And he used to go back and forth from the gym, and then people were really rooting for him, and now he's one of the lion uh MMA champions because of that. It's pretty popular. But he's from a rural place in the mountains somewhere in Vietnam and stuff, so people do fall in love with those stories too. Last question for you how can people find find and connect with you?

Julie Sivanthaphanith 29:12

LinkedIn, always on LinkedIn, I told you, right? Um yeah, that's my main channel, and uh you have all my contacts there, um, email, phone number, uh everything is on LinkedIn.

Kevin 29:24

You know, some things that really stick out to me is from this podcast are one, kind of like the nuances of like between cultures and how leadership is perceived differently and confusion cultures versus like the Western world, and even within the Western world, people have to operate in Europe versus like Australia versus the US, completely different too. That's my personal experience. But yeah. And then also what's really interesting as well was this sure you do global leadership coaching, but it's really the art of like building relationships like that. I see this whole framework of throughout the whole. Whole conversation to you. And then I also really enjoyed our conversation about you didn't say it, but kind of like building this lifestyle business where you're redefining like scale, what scale means to you. And maybe it doesn't mean to scaling like two millions and millions of dollars. Maybe it's like building out a team in this next season and stuff. And it's okay not to know the next phase, too. I thought that was really interesting. And then how it's the other interesting part is like when you make your investments, peace of mind is a major driving factor. I think that's something that we've all went from. Um Julie, I just want to thank you for the work you do and sharing all your uh experience on this podcast as well. So thank you so much, Julie, for coming on.

Julie Sivanthaphanith 30:42

Thank you very much, Kevin.